Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Full Version)

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michall -> Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 20:20:27)

I ask this question ultimately a lot: are we doing rasgueados and picados in wrong way?

Because I thing that the natural way of dooing rasgueado is:
IMA... (normally is AMI...)
I feel that you can stretch fingers a lot more when dooing IMA..


And more natural way of alternating fingers for picado is:
IAIAIA... (normally IMIM)
-Here i feel more independience of I and A and this combination also give me better tone but it is individual...


Dont forget that in flamenco people learned in traditional way, like: "your father is playing it like that so this is only manner to do it.."

I hope you undersdand my english!

Un saludo a todos!



HolyEvil -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 20:28:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michall

I ask this question ultimately a lot: are we doing rasgueados and picados in wrong way?

Because I thing that the natural way of dooing rasgueado is:
IMA... (normally is AMI...)



i have to say AMI is so much more natural.. like tapping your 4 fingers one after another on the table quickly.. for myself it feels AMI is so much smoother..

cheers



Elie -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 20:36:38)

quote:

more natural way of alternating fingers for picado is:
IAIAIA... (normally IMIM)

I agree with that, and I usually do Picado that way [:)]



michall -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 20:50:26)

quote:

i have to say AMI is so much more natural.. like tapping your 4 fingers one after another on the table quickly.. for myself it feels AMI is so much smoother..

cheers


But rasgueado isnot tapping it is different movement.
I want to say that we are AFFECTED from hours of practicing of rasgueado AMI - do you remmember first time when you started practicing it?

Try this test:
On your left hand(or fretting hand) close you hand like this WITHOUT THE THUMb OVER IT



and then try to "fire" your fingers in AMI and IMA way, I feel that the tendos are somehow more connected when you are doing AMI

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Ricardo -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 20:51:21)

It is not wrong or right. There are reasons for doing either way, then there will be even exceptions to those reasons. In the end the music is the thing that gave birth to these techniques don't forget that. Always make the music be the focus not the technique itself.

The singer here is great, but the guitar ain't bad....ima rasgueados:


I and M stroke I think are stronger then I A strokes, but the advantage is finger length. But if you simply bend the M finger you fix that problem. So again you see advantages and disadvantages all around.

Ricardo



michall -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 20:56:09)

quote:

I agree with that, and I usually do Picado that way


Nice! Now i am doing the two combination but want to switch to IA...
When you improvise how fast you can go?

Somebody have video of someone whe doing some crazy IAIA runs?

- without gerardo nunez and paco de lucia please:)



michall -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 20:59:58)

Manuel Cano is dooing IMA:




michall -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 21:01:50)

quote:

Always make the music be the focus not the technique itself.


Bien dicho ricardo..



Elie -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 21:02:55)

quote:

When you improvise how fast you can go?

here is a granaina I played time ago check it from 0:38 ->0:45 all picados are done with IAIA and I believe thats the fastest I can go with


"Juan Habichuela Nieto" has a video with crazy IAIA I will try to look it up for you



Elie -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 21:05:15)

this one :



michall -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 21:12:40)

2Elie:
I like that granaina..

Uff Nieto de Habichuela rocks man, he is really good ! Nice post..



michall -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 9 2011 21:16:32)

Hey I found this oldschool rumba, manitas goes IA prety long fast runs..



They have terrible haircut[:D]



ToddK -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 10 2011 1:44:32)

Well, there's nothing natural about contorting your body around a hunk
of wood with fishing line on it, but we do it. :)

AMI rasgeo makes sense because we want to end(or land) on the strongest
finger.

IMA may feel natural to you, but would sound weak, and backwards.



rombsix -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 10 2011 2:34:47)

I recently watched these videos, and I think Juan has some good insight about rasgueados. I know he's "not my cup of tea" for many of you, but what he talks about in these videos, I feel, is relevant to this thread.






FredSanford -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 10 2011 2:55:43)

Lets also put the strings on upside down. That will really make it easier and way better, because current trends in flamenco technique need serious improvement. Doesn't that Flameatle guy do backwards rasgueados too?



aloysius -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 10 2011 9:46:36)

quote:

AMI rasgeo makes sense because we want to end(or land) on the strongest
finger.

I agree with Todd. A rasgueo generally leads into a strong beat, so in many cases you should aim to crescendo into that beat, weakest to strongest finger. For other special case rasgueo uses I guess you could argue for the reverse fingering.

The i a picado is quite a different issue, Cano for one now does all his rasgueos with i a to great effect (he says i m takes more practice to maintain for him).



michall -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 10 2011 13:17:16)

quote:

Lets also put the strings on upside down.


Actually isnot bad idea, u could do nice alzapua/pugar melodies on the top strings...

Dick Dale had always strings upside down.



michall -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 10 2011 13:18:28)

quote:

**** Dale


D1ck Dale



XXX -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 10 2011 13:48:48)

check this: i play the guitar lefthanded!



Florian -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 11 2011 4:09:48)

Its a good question, but more natural dosent necessarily always translate in to the best or most effective solution.

As Ricardo brilliantly said, "In the end the music is the thing that gave birth to these techniques"

this is something that has been studied and tried in depth by thousands and hundreds of thousands of guitarists before us who dedicated lifetimes to it and thought of nothing else but achieving the best results the most effective way..

the techniques we are using today, is the result of years and years of studying, playing evolution and fine-tuning ... makes you appreciate the validity of each techniques that stood the test of time...must be a reason if after years and years of playing they all agree on the same techniques



gaash -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 11 2011 14:55:45)

I think what these debates end up showing is that there is no right/wrong way and practicing whatever way consistently is the key. WIth that said, I find the traditional ways (ami and imim) to be much easier... in reality tho, ami for picado should be what we all strive for to achieve top speed.



Doitsujin -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 3:38:15)

quote:

Its a good question,



lolol.... here in science, when the speaker was asked a question and he has no idea how to answer it...thats the most common sentence the people start with... BUSTED! xD



Florian -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 6:59:40)

lol no actually i thought it was a good question...being here for years u see the same questions regurgitated a million times u know...(not kidding when i say i have seen each of the following asked at least 30 times, what strings ? what nails ?, how picado? etc)...its hard to see something different but when i do i think oh cool, something different..

and it is a good question cause common sense in general dictates that the most logical and best way to do anything is naturally (even tho our "naturally" was dictated by the things we needed to do, picking our nose and flicking, self pleasuring and using tools, lol not musical instruments which came in way way after our creation and evolution....(drums and wind instruments are the closest i can think of something that dosent go against our natural tendencies) ....so that's what makes it a fair enough and a good question .....the fact that he thought of it that way, i applaud the originality and otherwise a valid question ...so na na [:-][:D]

never been afraid to say i don't know ...or not answer something i don't know...all u can do is give opinions really, besides " there must be something to it if everybody all this years has been doing it and are agreeing on it" i don't have anything much more convincing



Doitsujin -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 13:45:38)

Hey Flo I was just joking! ;)

I didn´t even see the question u r talking about...



Florian -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 16:18:15)

quote:

Hey Flo I was just joking!



no!! i was...u were right the first time, i dont know what the f**** hes talking about, unless its got pictures i dont get it [:D]...kidding michall, i still think your question was good [;)]



Pimientito -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 16:42:39)

quote:

In the end the music is the thing that gave birth to these techniques


Like the stuff we got up to in the 80's...[;)]
( I dare you to watch this without laughing)




rombsix -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 16:52:55)

quote:

Like the stuff we got up to in the 80's...
( I dare you to watch this without laughing)


That would sound like this nowadays.




Pimientito -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 17:00:42)

Hey Ramzi. I was thinking about that video. It also inspired me to do a similar 3 and 4 fingered techniques. To answer the original question, For me the fastest way to get single notes is a,m,i.
Sometimes its called 3 fingered picado but now I dont really consider it picado any more. Its a modified arpeggio based on Gerardos technique. It gives a very fast effect but its much easier to perform. Its only Paco really than can get true picado at that velocity. Check out the run at 2:14...thats all done with a,m,i.



rombsix -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 17:03:06)

quote:

Its only Paco really than can get true picado at that velocity.


I beg to differ, Mark.




Pimientito -> RE: Technique question - WE ARE DOING IT REVERSELY? (Nov. 12 2011 17:17:59)

All right then Paco, Rafa Cortes and a couple of other freaks of nature out there. [:D]
Most of us will never get that kind of sound by picado so using 3 finger technique instead gives a very nice effect that even mortals like me can hope to achieve!



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