blanca with cedar top? (Full Version)

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edguerin -> blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 2 2011 18:30:37)

Any of you guys ever hear of a blanca with cedar top ?
Cedar top, maple sides?
What would be the pros and cons?



pietro -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 2 2011 19:42:28)

I have Plazuelo, Marvi, Manzanero, Juan Miguel Gonzalez, all with spruce top, all great guitars, but my old 1971 Gerundino with cedar top and cypress back and sides, it seems coming from another planet, my best guitar even.
I think that if a guitar is a nice one, it is so either with spruce or cedar top, but this is my opinion and I am not an expert luthier.
Ciao
Pietro



C. Vega -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 2 2011 19:51:03)

Late in his career, Sabicas frequently played a cedar/cypress Ramirez.
If it was good enough for Sabicas.....



Sean -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 2 2011 20:46:54)

Maple, cedar is one of the best combos I think, it's just not as common because most people don't like the look of a darker soundboard on lighter back and sides.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 2 2011 21:19:02)

I´ve built 4 or 5 blancas (cypres) with cedar tops. Its a very nice guitar. I think that was Ramirez favorite combination.

I´d love to build a cedar top maple blanca if anyone is interested. [;)]
I´ve got a very beautifull tiger striped euro maple set lying, ready to be used.



jshelton5040 -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 2 2011 21:52:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

Any of you guys ever hear of a blanca with cedar top ?
Cedar top, maple sides?


We've built probably 250 cedar top blancas although only a couple with maple back and sides. I suppose that tells you what I think of the combination. Ideally one can find a very stiff light colored cedar so you don't have to use as much color in the finish. The cedar growing along the Pacific Northwest coast tends to be ideal since it's light in color and weight and very stiff.



Shawn Brock -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 3 2011 3:13:50)

My Castillo Blanca has a Cedar top. Its bright, loud and great! Although, I must say, I'm mostly a spruce man. I would love to order a spruce blanca with pegs... Some day... Some cedar blancas sound as bright as spruce, and some are just a little to dark for me.

Shawn Brock



Tom Blackshear -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 3 2011 14:38:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

Any of you guys ever hear of a blanca with cedar top ?
Cedar top, maple sides?
What would be the pros and cons?


I built a few in the beginning of my career but prefer to use spruce, as its color is closer to the cypress sides and back and is generally more structurally sound than cedar, especially for thinner tops. Also, I can bring the color to match much better.

But there is a case for cedar top guitars. It just depends on what the builder/player prefers. I've seen a few guitars without color to match the tops to sides and back, and my thinking is that they look unfinished and not very professional.



RobJe -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 3 2011 16:04:56)

Jose Ramirez III claimed the credit for the first use of Western Red Ceder for tops in 1965. That is not to say that he was the first! He used it first just for classical guitars but by 1967 it appeared on the 655 mm scale flamenco guitars. The guitars were finished in Urea at this time and the combination of cedar and finish gave an unmistakable colour to the sound. I have a 1968 peg head that I played for many years. It had good volume which was a comfort in the days when even performances in large theatres were unamplified. Gerundino produced a lot of cedar top flamencos. I remember playing some of the early ones – very light and exciting to play but prone to split. Perhaps he worked the cedar too thinly? I would have liked to own a later Gerundino but times were hard so I stuck with my Ramirez. I swapped to a spruce top guitar in 1990 and it took some time to get used to it – now I prefer spruce. It is nice to get the old Ramirez out occasionally – it has travelled thousands of miles, gone through 3 cases and apart from the usual maintenance the only problem has been a broken peg.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 3 2011 16:06:48)

This with ceder being less structurally sound than spruce is very much your idea Mr. Blackshear.
Western red cedar is considered to be more stable than any kind of spruce and I´ve seen very few cracks on cedar topped guitars, being flamenco, classical, steelstring... whatever.

Your idea of cedar top blancas look unprofessional is also an idea of yours and absolutely nothing else. Design is taste and thats it.

I personally like the looks of cedar top flamencos also when they are natural colored. Just like John Shelton, I prefer a light colored cedar. But thats just my taste



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Anders Eliasson -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 3 2011 16:09:42)

and from another angle.



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etta -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 3 2011 17:52:16)

I have a F. Manzanero, l970, cedar top blanca, very percussive, loud, but can be played very sweetly. The trebles are exceptionally round and bell like. I have a G. Canin cedar/b. rosewood, and it is the loudest most penetrating and percussive guitar I have ever seen. I also have an old J. Bellido negra with cedar also very crisp and loud.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 3 2011 21:18:46)

quote:

Jose Ramirez III claimed the credit for the first use of Western Red Ceder for tops in 1965. That is not to say that he was the first! He used it first just for classical guitars but by 1967 it appeared on the 655 mm scale flamenco guitars.


I bought two Ramirez flamenco guitars made with cedar tops and catalytic two part varnish when I was in Madrid in the summer of 1965. Both were finished with a darker color due to the darker cedar used for his tops. Ramirez believed in coloring his tops to match the sides and backs. However I think he went darker than necessary for most of the finish work.

I understand why some builders don't care to color their guitars. For one, it is more labor intensive to get it right with French polish, and the cost of repairing chip marks in the wood is also quite difficult to match without having to strip the finish and start over.

Ander's guitar looks quite nice with its lighter cedar top but I hold my opinion about color matching cedar tops, as a general rule. As it is, I color match nearly all of my spruce tops to match their cypress sides and backs.




Sean -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 2:28:31)

When I first saw a dark cedar soundboard on lighter cypress I thought it looked awkward and loud but it has kind of grown on me like Conde orange.
To each his own

Love the guitar and Don's playing by the way[:)]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 7:33:02)

quote:

I hold my opinion about color matching cedar tops, as a general rule.


As a general rule no!!! Its your opinion and nothing else. Its like saying that its unprofessional to make red cars.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 10:11:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

I hold my opinion about color matching cedar tops, as a general rule.


As a general rule no!!! Its your opinion and nothing else. Its like saying that its unprofessional to make red cars.


Many Spanish builders color their tops to match their cypress sides and backs. It's not just my opinion. Barbero did it, Conde did it, Ramirez did it, Rodriguez did it, Reyes does it, and on and on with many Spanish builders.

It's more labor intensive but "I believe" it adds to the ambience of the instrument. It's not a point to argue, its a fact that many Spanish builders employ with their guitars. It's a general rule with them. Trends may add some change to the rule but the general coloring rule stands.

This is similar in its meaning to the Spanish fan-braced model being the general rule to the market place, instead of the newer lattice braced trends. And Red cars have color on them, generally all over the body to color match them. So guitars are color matched as well to add patina and over-all beauty to the wood.

It's done all the time, and if it is done right, it glows with a deep luster and attractiveness toward compelling the player to pick it up and try it out.



RobJe -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 10:55:41)

quote:

Trends may add some change to the rule but the general coloring rule stands.


Who needs rules? The luthier makes guitars, the player chooses whether to buy.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 11:55:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

Trends may add some change to the rule but the general coloring rule stands.


Who needs rules? The luthier makes guitars, the player chooses whether to buy.


All I was saying is that the general trends of coloring guitars, in Antiquity, have caused their trend to become a general rule in today's market place. This does not mean that this is the only way, but a widely accepted, and perhaps a majority way to finish guitars.

These older trends have become widely accepted to become a general rule. But where the beauty of the natural wood is concerned, there are builders today who feel it is expedient to finish in a clear coat rather than put color in the finish.

But, as I said before, my personal preference is to add a little color to the wood to bring up a more appealing patina. This is my opinion, but based on a long tradition of Spanish builders of notoriety. If a person decides not to join this ideal, then that's his choice.



Ruphus -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 15:33:47)

My personal view is that I can understand why makers wouldn´t want the top darker than B&S.

Apart of that, I always liked clear finsih / natural wood appeal.

That blanca Anders showed above to my eyes is such a beauty. ( The best looking I have seen of him so far on the foro.)
I would just love to grab it and play!

Ruphus



Anders Eliasson -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 16:07:10)

quote:

But, as I said before, my personal preference is to add a little color to the wood to bring up a more appealing patina. This is my opinion, but based on a long tradition of Spanish builders of notoriety. If a person decides not to join this ideal, then that's his choice.


Good. I like that change from rule to opinion. Some like red cars. Some dont. Some like black cars. Some dont. ¿Why cant we have natural colored cars? I like good guitars. Some I color some I dont. The mayority of my clients want natural color. So I make mostly natural color. So a cedar top blanca will have a darker soundboard if that is what the clients wants. On other design questions I´m less open to the clients wishes. I´ve said no to building guitars with media luna headstock. Not because I dont like it, but its not my design and I would find it to be cheasy to do so. And I wouldnt build a guitar with a headstock like Andalusian guitars. But thats because I find them to be very ugly.

Thanks Ruphus. I also think that cedar/cypress is very pretty. And it sounded awesome. (Its some 2 years ago since she flew away to Holland)



estebanana -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 18:37:48)

Wood, is wood, is wood and it does not care one hoot what you think. I like to let my tops stay natural and NOT match the color of the top and back. I like clear shellac and I like the wood to look like wood and express whatever characteristics inherent in the pieces I choose. Maybe warm the shellac up a bit by using some brownish honey colored shellac. I've never subscribed to any notion that the top and sides have to be color matched or tinted to match.

Most of the time those older makers Tom mentioned who color matched the top and sides did not do so with conscious intent. If you look into the theory of optics and learn how light travels through a finish and shines back out you learn a term called 'Refractive Index'. The light shines through a transparent finish and into the wood until it hits the wood cells and then reflects back out through the finish. What you are seeing is the light returning to your eye through the colored film of finish. If you put enough of the same colored 'film' over similar pieces of wood the result is similar refractive indexes which makes the woods seem more similar in over all color.

Why? Because there is a reciprocity of loss of refractive index according to how much colored film is layered over those two similar pieces of wood. The simple way of thinking about this is that light returns to your eye through the finish and it's like putting on sunglasses. Finishes flatten and equalize the amount of light returning to your eyes over the whole spectrum.

One more problem in saying past builders worked for equalized color over all is that Spruce shows the effects oxidization more, and turns more brown than Cypress through the years. If you are judging color matching many years after a guitar is made, the refractive index of the Spruce top has radically changed from what it was when it was first made. Take piece of Spruce, put tape on half of it and set it in a window for three weeks. Pull off the tape and look at how much it has changed color. One side will be darker brown than the other. A finish will allow for oxidization to happen and naturally add to the process of color equalization between Spruce and Cypress.

That golden brown matching of top a sides on old guitars is about half oxidation of the top. It's often really difficult to draw any conclusions about how much intentional color matching different builders did on a regular basis.

Personally I like a clear finish on a Cedar top. It's only my taste. Also cedar makes wonderful guitars no matter which back and sides you put them with, it's just how you do it.



estebanana -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 18:38:57)

quote:

Why cant we have natural colored cars? I like good guitars. Some I color some I dont. The mayority of my clients want natural color. So I make mostly natural color.


I agree



estebanana -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 18:41:49)

What I heard is that many past Spanish builders also used clear finishes (or lightly colored) and that they did not all use colored finishes. As I said oxidation accounts for much of what people think is actual pigment on older guitars.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 19:01:06)

quote:

I like to let my tops stay natural and NOT match the color of the top and back


Me too.. I even like the look of a darker cedar top against lighter cypress.

Do we color spruce tops to match rosewood negras/classicals??



Tom Blackshear -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 19:45:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1

quote:

I like to let my tops stay natural and NOT match the color of the top and back



Do we color spruce tops to match rosewood negras/classicals??


I prefer to use a light to medium tan, no yellow, color for my spruce tops with rosewood sides and backs. And I agree with Stephen that light does darken the color of the spruce wood over time.

But what I see on an old Santos; for example, is that the over-all color seems to be a good match after all the years it has been on the instrument. Perhaps my understanding is guided by the fact that I've built guitars for over 50 years, a certain way, and a darker top looks out of place for my taste.

But then we live in a world when everything seems to be turning upside down, imo.



jshelton5040 -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 22:02:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
But what I see on an old Santos; for example, is that the over-all color seems to be a good match after all the years it has been on the instrument. Perhaps my understanding is guided by the fact that I've built guitars for over 50 years, a certain way, and a darker top looks out of place for my taste.


I'm forced to agree with Tom. I prefer adding color to all guitar finishes although lately we've been building a lot of spruce top blancas without color. We do it to so we can sell the guitars for a little less money and save our clients money in these hard economic times. Overall I like bright yellow spruce top blancas and orange cedar top blancas. We've been known to add yellow to spruce top classics as well and always make our cedar top classics dark rusty orange. As they say, "whatever turns your crank".



Ricardo -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 4 2011 22:30:36)

Interesting thing about not matching color of top to sides and back. I have seen a couple guitars like this. An Esteso from 1960's a student bought used had a strange coating on sides and back that scratched off easy, some one had tried to cover some crack repairs on the sides. The natural wood was very white, and the top was darker, so an attempt to match color was made. It looks cool like that I think (when the coating was removed, it looked nicer with dark top and light sides). I am sure the top is Spruce. Look at these similar guitars:

I know it is black and white, but I think it is clear the top is darker. Also here same thing:


On my 73 esteso the top is a honey color, and looks more gold in some lighting. Btu the back and sides are very "conde orange" in comparison.

So I am not so sure about this matching of color was always so important.

Ricardo



Tom Blackshear -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 5 2011 2:14:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
But what I see on an old Santos; for example, is that the over-all color seems to be a good match after all the years it has been on the instrument. Perhaps my understanding is guided by the fact that I've built guitars for over 50 years, a certain way, and a darker top looks out of place for my taste.


I'm forced to agree with Tom. I prefer adding color to all guitar finishes although lately we've been building a lot of spruce top blancas without color. We do it to so we can sell the guitars for a little less money and save our clients money in these hard economic times. Overall I like bright yellow spruce top blancas and orange cedar top blancas. We've been known to add yellow to spruce top classics as well and always make our cedar top classics dark rusty orange. As they say, "whatever turns your crank".


The way I gauge the top color is to bring the top color to match whatever coloration that the cypress sides and back are showing me, whether it be light or a little darker. I don't think it's necessary to finish all guitars the exact same shade but to bring all of its parts to blend together as its over-all appearance requires. Thank you for your voice of reason.

Eugene Clark was telling me over the phone today that Borax soap, heated and mixed with blond shellac, will flatten out the dark color of some cedar tops. I think the point can be further made that Santos was most likely using a brand of shellac that was used for many purposes; even pasting paper to the walls back then.. But whatever it was, it had an ambience/patina to be proud of. Also, I still have some of the old school shellac with color, called Gomo Laca, which the finishing houses in Spain don't carry any more.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 5 2011 14:42:55)

quote:

On my 73 esteso the top is a honey color, and looks more gold in some lighting. Btu the back and sides are very "conde orange" in comparison.

So I am not so sure about this matching of color was always so important.


Could it possibly be that your guitar top was refinished? Otherwise I would have to say that it was a bad color match, if the finish was done in a two-tone consistancy.

The last guitar I finished was for a fellow builder and the deep tan-gold color was astounding. I have to remember what I did, so I can do it again :-)



Anders Eliasson -> RE: blanca with cedar top? (Nov. 5 2011 18:56:29)

quote:

Also, I still have some of the old school shellac with color, called Gomo Laca,


All shellack is called Goma laca in Spain, being old school, modern school, futuristic schoo.l whatever. The thing is that Goma Laca means..... shellack.



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