Something caught my eye

Something caught my eye (Full Version)

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Sean -> Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 2:28:33)
What is it and why do you think he does this? Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Tom Blackshear -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 9:05:45)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sean What is it and why do you think he does this? It's possible that his solid lining is not wide enough, like the Miguel Rodriguez lining, and he feels that this would add extra support to help with installing his binding purfling for top, back, and sides. It also might cause a higher frequency level to the sound. However, if the solid lining was a little wider, like in the two part laminate of the Miguel Rodriguez classical models, it might not be necessary. Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Sean -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 13:31:20)
The extra lining blocks and colour of the harmonic bars is what originally caused me to look but there is another detail I noticed about this guitar.

jshelton5040 -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 15:36:50)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sean The extra lining blocks and colour of the harmonic bars is what originally caused me to look but there is another detail I noticed about this guitar. Looks like laminated sides. His shop is a cluttered mess. I couldn't work in that kind of disorder.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 15:54:39)
quote: His shop is a cluttered mess. I couldn't work in that kind of disorder. Nor could I.

Sean -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 18:23:25)
Ok here's a hint, Spruce or Cedar soundboard?

Andy Culpepper -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 20:05:03)
quote: Ok here's a hint, Spruce or Cedar soundboard uhh.. spruce?

Sean -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 21:08:09)
I'll leave it up for a few more hours see who catches it. Should be up Stephen Faulk's alley if my guess is right on this detail. No more clues

Andy Culpepper -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 21:25:38)
One strange thing is that the sides and the harmonic bars actually seem to be painted red with some kind of varnish, you can tell because he kind of slopped some on part of the top linings, and the top of the back linings are not red. I don't see anything strange about the top, you can't see any grain lines but I think that's just the distance and the focus.

Andy Culpepper -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 21:29:38)
He left globs of glue on the brace ends but that's pretty common Spanish practice.

jshelton5040 -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 21:35:34)
quote: ORIGINAL: deteresa1 One strange thing is that the sides and the harmonic bars actually seem to be painted red with some kind of varnish, you can tell because he kind of slopped some on part of the top linings, and the top of the back linings are not red. I don't see anything strange about the top, you can't see any grain lines but I think that's just the distance and the focus. You're right Andy, I thought the sides were laminated but when I increased the magnification I could see that there is some kind of finish or stain on the inside. Very sloppy work and the guitar appears to be built like a tank. I'm unimpressed with his craftsmanship. Do you think those are cedar braces on a spruce top? That's what we've been using for over 40 years so it doesn't seem strange to me at all.

Sean -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 1 2011 22:48:08)
Very very close Andy, almost got it The guitar is coral wood, paduak by the way so some of the redness of the harmonic bars and linings is probably light reflexion.

NenadK -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 2 2011 1:42:18)
Excuse my ignorance but who is this guy?

Sean -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 2 2011 2:49:00)
The maker is Juan Montero Aguilera, a Spanish luthier for the past 50+ years. The craftsmanship is clean, the drop of glue on the ends of the fan braces is indeed common old school. What stands out is the white substance painted on the soundboard, which is smeared a little on some of the top lining in places. The fan struts are spruce, you can see a big difference in the colour between the fan struts and the soundboard which has no apparent grain lines. This paduak negra could be either cedar or spruce as the site the picture is from has one of each for sale. Now for my guess on what this white paint like substance could be. Gesso popped into my head for some reason, it's used in the art world by painters as a primer and canvas stiffener, it's also white. I looked up gesso, the original formula is basically chalk and thinned out hide glue, thinner then paint. Could this be a cedar top negra with gesso painted on the inside of the soundboard as some kind of stiffener or hardener? Has anyone heard of such a thing, rumours, old stories from the past perhaps?

estebanana -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 2 2011 3:38:49)
He wants to be a modern painter. :) Curious. I like it and I like his messed up shop. It's very unusual. I've never seen anything like that. Maybe it's just white shellac. Some guys like to varnish or shellac the inside and he ran out of clear shellac or does not care. It would add slight surface tension to the plate, but not much. It would also serve to tame some of the overtone series, which could be good or bad depending on how you deploy the material inside guitar. The coating inside would provide damping and perhaps he has calculated by experience he needs to have that to tone down the a thin top from being tinny. or he may be going totally daft in old age. I would be curious what he says about it. Those fat liners with the blocks. The idea there is create stiffness around the rim, so the top does not expend energy on vibrating movable sides. Some have thought that rigidity in the sides and rim is good for the top to have a platform to vibrate on top of without distorting the sides with the flex of the top. The concept is that this adds to projection and clarity. I've tried this and messed with it, it's actually a pretty old idea, but some modern makers have revived it and called it their own by making up proprietary names for it. (there's nothing new under the Sun) It's mostly ****y guitar voodoo talk. Except some designs do work on this principle, Smallman, etc, but in my opinion not flamenco guitars. I think flamenco guitars need some give and flex in the body structure to impart that voice. I see narrower, less intrusive glue blocks and flatter tops adding a lot to flamenco sound. But the few flamencos I built with laminated liners are intense.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 2 2011 7:28:59)
quote: Spanish luthier for the past 50+ years. Spanish men are famous for not cleaning anything but their car.[;)] Who says this guitar is a flamenco? He´s doing everything to make the edges of the soundboard stiff.

estebanana -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 2 2011 21:49:00)
quote: Who says this guitar is a flamenco? He´s doing everything to make the edges of the soundboard stiff. I was not saying it was a flamenco, just that I think and you too probably that stiffening the edges too much makes then sound more classical. But what do I know. Do you agree about flamencos working better with less stiff edges?

Sean -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 3 2011 2:26:40)
He is retired with a very low output, a search for his classical guitars came up nothing, I believe he is more of a flamenco specialist. The site the picture is from has two of his coral negras for sale one from 2007 the other 2008, he supplies them one guitar a year. The description of his guitars sound is sweet and lyrical so your probably right about it leaning towards classical. I was more interested in the substance applied to the soundboard, I thought perhaps it was something that was done way back in the past for awhile and given up on kind of like the tornovaz.

Sean -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 3 2011 2:57:34)
I'm not a Smallman fan, I would never have given up a Fleta for one. The Smallman back concept I think is pointless, it gives up tone with its deadness to boost projection in a world of necessary amplification.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 3 2011 7:39:54)
quote: Do you agree about flamencos working better with less stiff edges? Yes.

Tom Blackshear -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 3 2011 10:40:04)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sean He is retired with a very low output, a search for his classical guitars came up nothing, I believe he is more of a flamenco specialist. The site the picture is from has two of his coral negras for sale one from 2007 the other 2008, he supplies them one guitar a year. The description of his guitars sound is sweet and lyrical so your probably right about it leaning towards classical. I was more interested in the substance applied to the soundboard, I thought perhaps it was something that was done way back in the past for awhile and given up on kind of like the tornovaz. It could possibly be egg white to seal the wood as this was used for a sealer to the old shellac finishes many years ago. I don't remember what it was mixed with but I think some old finish books might have the mix. Personally, I use only shellac to seal spruce and cedar tops.

estebanana -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 3 2011 21:30:33)
Egg white was mainly used by itself as a sealer, but it stays clear. It can be mixed with a few things that would make it white, lead white or lead with calcium carbonate. But those mixtures would only add way too much damping to the guitar. And there no reason to put egg white on the inside. I but it's just white shellac. I think it's also a misjudgment to think that sealing the in side protects the guitar from seasonal or humidity changes. Re: Smallman style, the people who build them always say "Oh no they don't sound like banjos at all, they sound like Spanish guitars." Every one of them I've ever heard sounded either like a banjo or a harp. Sounding like a harp is not such a bad thing, but even the one I hear on recordings by John Williams sound like banjos. I was listening tot the radio the other day and it was recording of his version of Aranjuez piece and it sounded like a banjo in the core of the sound. Once the classical guitarist Philip Rochegar, a guy who is not famous but should be, said to me he wished classical guitar sounded played more lie flamenco guitars. He said he wanted to record back with a flamenco guitar. Ever since then I wanted to make a deep bodied flamenco guitar with a big plantilla. Philip said that most recording artists in his opinion go for the wrong kind of sound when recording the Spanish composed pieces. he said they should pick big flamenco sounding guitars that have a rough voice but will have a singing quality. It's a difficult guitar to make, but I always hear that sound in my head when I hear recordings of Spanish rep. on "Germanic" sounding cold guitars. Some top classical players have told me they need those "banjo" guitars because they are loud. And said he loves the romantic Spanish sound, but it's not practical for everything. I digress, but I want to make that rough voiced singer.

kominak -> RE: Something caught my eye (Nov. 4 2011 10:17:29)
quote: quote: Do you agree about flamencos working better with less stiff edges? Yes. Would you guys explain a little bit about this one? I listened to a lot of flamenco guitar samples and kinda got a feeling that solid (or laminated) linings help achieve somewhat more solid, rounder tone (= modern, lyrical flamenco tone in my ears). I know there are many more variables involved but am I close? That less stiff edges help achieving old school, raspy tone? I went with solid 3mm thick cedar linings for my first build, I'll see how will she sound.

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