will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Full Version)

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Haithamflamenco -> will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 4 2011 7:18:17)

Hi Guys[;)], que pasa tios y tias?

gypsy king!!![>:], they are gitanos, I belive orginally from Catalonia or baracalona, moved to france during the war,

the fathers of the tow families were puro flamenco, singing and playing guitar,

touring in france in USA,

tonino knows how to play other palos, the cantaoras sing also, but they choose to play mostly rumba on stage, cause it is easy to normal people 4/4 time stracture and they can make money from it.

I watch thier decomuntary, they are absoloutly pure gitanos,

they sing fandango por medio!!!

So, will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!!

Lots of people classifed gypsy kings as fakemenco, but lots also learn and play thier rumbas!!!here in the foro,

so I couldnt really find how is the tradtional rumba look like, so I can compare it with thier modren rumba!!

ok, gypsy kings rumba is more rethmic and paco or vicente is more melodic, thats obviose,

can we say they are onley dealing with one type of flamenco which is Rumba!!



[>:][>:][>:][>:][>:][>:]



Guest -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 4 2011 7:44:02)

quote:

flamenco or fakemenco?!!


neither.
To me they have created a niche within the 'world' music market and seem to produce music of a high production quality within that parameter....ie rumba, funk, afro, salsa etc....so a mix of stuff going on.
But i dont hear it as flamenco nor anything 'fake' within it....[ just not my listening choice but they do what they do exceptionally well ]
but yes Rumba primarily.. a music equally at home in Spain as it is in Cuba or Western Africa...etc....a rhythm without borders.



FredSanford -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 4 2011 7:45:51)

pop



Guest -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 4 2011 7:51:27)

quote:

pop

he he
guess it depends where you live....
i think if the gypsy kings were pop music here i would find it more digestible than justin bieber....
Rumba Catalana is how they describe their music....



Ricardo -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 4 2011 8:15:37)

Rumba or Gipsy Rumba or Rumba Catalana as mentioned....they are RUMBEROS. Pretty simple really. You also have people that only interpret fandangos, or sevillanas which are song forms closely related to flamenco, but not necessarily enough to define an artist as a "flamenco". I don't consider most of the members of the group to be flamencos simply because they dont' really sing Solea, siguiriyas or bulerias properly, more as aficionados they can interpret these cantes. Some of the guitar players (such as tonino) play most or all palos perfectly well however. And the lead singers know some fandangos, granaina etc so, comparing to PURO fakemenco like Rodrigo y Gabriela or Ottmar is not fair. Taste can still be an issue...

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=19005&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=gypsy%2Ckings%2Cricardo&tmode=&smode=&s=#19095



El Kiko -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 4 2011 11:56:41)

If you talk of Rumba then I would consider it to be a valid flamenco palo, and even within the world of rumbas there are different types and styles, but within that, then the gypsy kings have there own place , which is of course more on the commercial side.
The rumba has been around for a couple of hundred years and as AlVal mentioned it has Afro-Cuban influences.
I think that even the Gypsy kings have some rumbas which are more traditional than others , "My WAy" wouldn't be that traditional of a rumba [8D]
However some others would be , and what happens is some flamenco music as it is influenced by modern culture, technology and other world influences begins to drift away into another genre . Sometimes it's difficult to say where one begins and another one ends , as it just kind of fades out rather than ending and beginning,
Myself I would consider it still a valid form of flamenco and therefore the gypsy kings still in the flamenco world , albeit quite far to one side .
Perhaps also consider Benjamin Woods who has a mix of Metal and flamenco !!
Works OK for me ,,,,and he has a sevillanas that is correct , and follows all the flamenco rules .. but maybe he is fading out on a different border of flamenco as it becomes mixed by different influences,
You have to decide for yourself .



Guest -> [Deleted] (Oct. 4 2011 13:13:14)

[Deleted by Admins]



ToddK -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 3:11:43)

Did you even bother to notice that not one Gipsy King album has flamenco
in the title?
How can they be fakemenco if they dont call it flamenco? You're getting Lazy there Haitham. LOL


Here's a clear example of fakemenco perpatration;

Ottmar Liebert's first album was called "Nuevo Flamenco".

There is no flamenco on that album.....

Bam!!! Fakemenco!!

[8D]



at_leo_87 -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 3:58:02)

i've been to one of their shows and one of them shouted. "ole! flamenco!".........[8|][8|][8|]



Northern Rock -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 10:59:37)

Have to say I saw them over twenty years ago and they presented the show as both . They played the hits from thier previous two albums and had a specially
"Flamenco Moment " as they put it half way through.
A bit of a kak handed way of presenting it but a very nice concert in the Albert Hall.
Theres a nice Bulerias on thier early nineties album , I,ll digg it out if any ones interested.



Haithamflamenco -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 11:03:23)

quote:

Did you even bother to notice that not one Gipsy King album has flamenco
in the title?
How can they be fakemenco if they dont call it flamenco? You're getting Lazy there Haitham. LOL
Here's a clear example of fakemenco perpatration;
Ottmar Liebert's first album was called "Nuevo Flamenco".
There is no flamenco on that album.....
Bam!!! Fakemenco!!



Todd, I didnt notice that, I dont know why, but plent of people every where belive that gypsy kings are playing flamenco music from spain!!!!!

In my begining I was so effected buy fakemenco, that really slow my improvemnt, until I descover the real flamenco, dammmm [:@][:@][:@]

one time I told my spanish friend common I will let you hear some flamenco, then I let him listen to gypsy kings, then he said: hay mi amigo this is not flamenco, and in that time I was really suprised!!



Guest -> [Deleted] (Oct. 5 2011 12:17:31)

[Deleted by Admins]



Haithamflamenco -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 14:12:44)

quote:

Haitham,

Bro I am right there with you

Same thing happened with me....I could have been a much better player by now if I had actually known what real Flamenco was at least ten or 15 years earlier

I guess that means we have to work harder to make up for lost time!


Rumbaro bro,

I absulotly hate fakmenco I lost five years playing and learning fakemenco crap!!!

[:'(][:'(][:'(][:'(]

this is why I creat the Pena Flamenca De bahrien to prevent this happning to any newbie who seek the real flamenco, sure you cannot convince everybody though,

Fakemenco have many weapons, on of them is the MEDIAAAAAAAAAA and easy money,

I love what you are doing RumbaSultan, keep your passion real,

more real flamenco and less flamenconet,

aleeeeeeeeeeeeee[:D]



Harry -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 15:22:50)

quote:

PURO fakemenco


that is a new one.

[:D]

I think they make good music, or at least they used to. They are definitely a band that I thought was flamenco when I was 9-10 years old. The black tap plates, the word Gypsy in the band name all contribute to the flamenco aesthetic. I would say it is an ingredient of what they are cooking up.

Perhaps the problem is the audience who perceived what they do as flamenco due to ignorance and lack of exposure to real flamenco. Let's face it, with this band flamenco became much more known to Western audiences and they definitely made me want to search out the real thing.



kozz -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 15:57:33)

quote:

this is why I creat the Pena Flamenca De bahrien to prevent this happning to any newbie who seek the real flamenco,


...but the newbie still might have been wandering around for 15 years until he find the Pena Flamenca [:D]

Good initiative anyway!



El Saare -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 16:12:05)

There are big number of people who became flamenco fans, players or listeners after listening to Gypsy Kings. it is not a professional words but it is a fact. so it is flamenco or not?
I disagree with guys said they always play easy listening music to make money, I think they like to sing ....just sing songs. For any one who is not intrested in flamenco, he will listen to nice spanish music and nice songs and don't care about palos...this is my own point of view.



FredSanford -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 16:43:26)

I knew about flamenco before the GKs. Before Ottmar. Issac Albeniz and Manuel de Falla were the gateway drugs for me.

GKs are fine. Nothing fake about what they do. Just very commercial.



BarkellWH -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 20:17:16)

quote:

I respect the Gipsy Kings very much and would never call them Fakemenco...

First they never claim to be Flamenco guitarists.....they are simply Rumba Players.... As mentioned the Catalana style of Rumba...and they obviously are very authentic and are the real deal.....


Actually, Rumbaking, they have claimed to play flamenco. One reason there is so much ignorance in the general population regarding flamenco can be found in the notice listing a July 2010 performance of the Gypsy Kings at Wolf Trap Park for the Performing Arts, here in the Washington, DC area. It noted that they will perform their "Worldwide hit Bamboleo and other fiery flamenco tunes." Bamboleo???!!! Flamenco tunes???!!! Perhaps it should have read "toons."

Now, I have no problem with the Gypsy Kings. They are fine guitarists, singers, and performers. But no doubt there were many in the audience those two evenings who left thinking they had just attended a flamenco performance. Perhaps it is too much to say they were swindled. And they probably wouldn't care anyway. They will have enjoyed the performance. But it will have perpetuated a myth regarding what flamenco is all about: If it sounds Spanish, it must be flamenco. And it doesn't absolve the Gypsy Kings of responsibility to say their publicist called Bamboleo "flamenco." They knew what the notice stated and let it stand. So, in a way, they are fakemenco, at least if the above-cited incident is any indication.

Cheers,

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 21:51:46)

quote:

It noted that they will perform their "Worldwide hit Bamboleo and other fiery flamenco tunes." Bamboleo???!!! Flamenco tunes???!!! Perhaps it should have read "toons."


And which member of the kings WROTE that descrption????

The problem is usually not with artists themselves, it is with the perceptions of the marketing and audience.



BarkellWH -> RE: will you condenser gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 23:30:14)

quote:

And which member of the kings WROTE that descrption????

The problem is usually not with artists themselves, it is with the perceptions of the marketing and audience.


As I wrote above, that does not absolve the Gypsy Kings of responsibility. They clearly knew about and let stand the conflation of "Bamboleo" with flamenco. Thus, in my opinion, they went along with the marketing ploy and bore part of the responsibility for the (let's be honest) fraudulent perception of flamenco left with the audience.

Cheers,

Bill



GuitarVlog -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 5 2011 23:33:39)

I always classed them as Gypsy Rumba but they are definitely not flamenco.



Escribano -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 0:28:02)

Who cares? I lived in the South of France for two years and Andalucía for three years and this question never, ever, cropped up. Different but no less enjoyable. You should hear the **** music they play at Spanish fiestas.

Can we cut the whole fakemenco crap; it makes me puke. You think you are doing someone a service? Nope, you are just being pompous. I found it on my own by just listening to stuff, duh. I went to a GK gig at the Wolf Trap, VA and enjoyed that too.



estebanana -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 1:27:02)

I like them once in a while, they are not trying to be profound in the sense that they sing solea. But they are not trying to do that, right? It is not their intention. I think they know what they are doing.

To me the GK's are a kind of Liberace of flamenco. That's not a put down, it's a compliment. I like Liberace. He knew who he was and he was honest about it.

Liberace has one thing the GK's have not figured out yet and they better hurry up and do this. Liberace lived in Las Vegas Nevada and he played the same million dollar Steinway piano every night in the same opulent hotel concert room. He went home to his luxurious mansion every night in a wonderful custom limo. Liberace was a smart cookie, he figured out how to do what every musician wants to do as they get older. Make a lot of money, have fans that love you and come to you from all around the world. He would never have to never go on tour.

The GK's still tour, the Rolling Stones still tour, Metalica still tours, so as smart as Mick Jagger and Kirk Hammett are they are still not as professional as Liberace. The GK's have the full potential to reach Liberacedom if they hurry and cut a deal to star in a year around Las Vegas hotel concert hall. But I fear like Elvis, who very nearly became the Uber Liberace, they may pass away before they really hit it big in Vegas all year around.

Look who is starring in a big a Vegas show with a three year contract? Elton John. Smart man. Elton John is a song writer and an entertainer. I would put the Gypsy Kings into same category, they are entertainers. Nothing wrong with that, I like being entertained. And if the entertainer is hip enough to figure out how to escape going on grueling bus and airplane tours and staying in a different bed every night and he/she draws fans to see him, well then that is cool.

The Gypsy Kings are cool. They have manged to keep a band together for more than twenty years and they are more well known than perhaps, Dolly Parton, but not as accomplished at the Las Vegas as the heaven on Earth measure of entertainer success.

Think about it like this: Tom Jones, Wayne Newton, Elton John, Liberace and Elvis are the gods of Vegas. Linda Ronstadt, Fleetwood Mac and the Gipsy Kings et al are the minor deities.

They are all 'Realmenco' and all entertaining. Is it flamenco? Who cares! Who listens to flamenco except a bunch of naggy, nutty, expert specialists?

Liberace. Liberate yourself.



Haithamflamenco -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 7:09:16)

quote:

They are all 'Realmenco' and all entertaining. Is it flamenco? Who cares! Who listens to flamenco except a bunch of naggy, nutty, expert specialists?


Hayyyyyyyyyyyy [:D][:D][:D][:D] thanks for the nicknames hehehehehe[:D]

we are just discussing it so we sort it out,

I love gypsy kings anyway , I belive they are Rumba flamenca,

[;)]



XXX -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 11:18:30)

I think different tastes in music was NEVER the issue with fakemenco...



Escribano -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 11:25:40)

Fair enough but let's not get too snobby about it. That nearly took us offline a few years ago when someone decided what was old school flamenco and what wasn't. Labels are ok for discussion purposes, but not when they divide.



XXX -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 12:02:08)

yeah the forum was offline because one had the f***ing control over it and has gone mad about his controlling issues [:D] I dont see anything close happening here (lets keep it real). People seem to have different opinions on fakemenco, which is ok, i dont care. But those who are saying "live and let live" simply havent understood the point of the critique of fakemenco.



Guest -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 12:07:38)

quote:

Liberace of flamenco.

who'd have thought?
maybe this is the beginning of it all.......
[ wonder if Luisa Triana made it to Vegas?]



Florian -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 13:40:18)

i agree with whomever says "who cares" its good music...
theres nothing fake about it...guys have something to say and
they say it...nothing about that its fake...weather is done to bulerias compas or rumba


and the fact that they can do flamenco makes them flamenco
even if they did a blues song



n85ae -> RE: will you consider gypsy kings a flamenco or fakemenco?!! tell us why? (Oct. 6 2011 13:41:30)

Ok all this Fakemenco discussion, has moved into the realm of Foro-Pollution!
You guys are polluting the forum with it. In fact my reply is even adding to the
pollution. Cease I say!

How about switch back to real discussions of Flamenco. You know "guitar
technique", etc????

In any case I find I really hate some "traditional" flamenco, which is to the
ears about like listening to Cats fighting, and I in fact "Like" some of the
Fakemenco. Even Ottmar has some stuff, that is not terrible to listen to.

Regards,
Jeff



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