Conde made by R. S. Carpio (Full Version)

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jshelton5040 -> Conde made by R. S. Carpio (Apr. 30 2005 20:56:42)

I’ve read several opinions of late on this list that Conde Hermanos (felipe v shop) guitars are made by Ricardo Sanchis Carpio. Although I have no personal knowledge on this subject, I do have 40 years experience as a luthier and have worked on both the Conde A26 and R. S. Carpio AF1a extra. I do not see a similarity in the guitars. The top bracing is completely different, they use different scales (650 for Conde, 660 for Carpio), the interior of the Conde exhibits impeccable craftsmanship with all parts sanded and fitted to perfection. The Carpio is well crafted but does not show nearly the attention to detail as the Conde (understandable since it sells for half the price). I mean no criticism of either guitar, I like both of them but to me there is no more similarity between Conde and R.S. Carpio than there is between Conde and any other quality flamenco guitar.

John Shelton




PacoPaella -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 1 2005 11:51:12)

Interesting, i have yet to see a Conde with a scale of 650 mm. All i had in hand were 66 and some, be it Media Luna's or EF5 (which is well known to be built by Carpio). I do not even recall seeing a 650 mm in the online shop but then i havent checked the various places lately.

I have heard the mentioned rumor from someone frequently visiting both shops. It was said that the conde guitars in progress can be seen in the Carpio factory. Besides, they do sound very very similar...

just my 0.02€




Guest -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 1 2005 16:17:57)

The Condes I've seen had long scale as well.

Most probably (hopefully) they'll have to say who makes their guitars according to EU legislation.




jshelton5040 -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 1 2005 17:01:18)

Sorry if I was wrong on the scale. All the earlier Condes I have worked on were indeed 660mm and I didn’t bother to check the scale on the two new A26 models that I recently set up. I assumed when they changed their top bracing that they also changed the scale. Are all three of the sites below incorrect?


http://www.guitarsalon.com/store.php?it=GUFLHER-02348
http://www.ivormairants.co.uk/conde_c.html
https://www.danzeffguitars.com/showitem.cfm?menu=flamenco&type=guitars&id=128

John Shelton




Jim Opfer -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 2 2005 0:17:59)

I sold my Conde (Felipe V, A26 just last week).
It had bars under the soundboard running either side of the sound hole on the top to bottom axis. I dont think they went the full way, just either side of the sound hole. Strange detail that I haven't seen before. I don't know if it's the same bracing on a Carpio?

Jim.




gshaviv -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 2 2005 6:01:50)

I thought it was Vicente Sanchis that did the condes?




Guest -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 2 2005 11:23:37)

Jim

I dont get what you're saying. Could you desribe that a little deeper? Like how long are these braces.

Saludo
Anders




jshelton5040 -> RE: Conde top bracing (May 2 2005 15:01:31)

Earlier Conde's had standard fan bracing (7 struts with the outer ones splayed). The newer A26 has seven struts with the center one ending at the lower transverse bar (tonebar) and the one on each side of it running from the upper transverse bar (below the fingerboard) through the lower transverse bar by means of a half-lap and ending at the V shaped brace near the end block. The two long parallel braces do not appear to be spruce or cedar. The wood in them was darker colored, since the guitars I examined were new I didn't feel comfortable checking these braces for hardness.

Another change from earlier Conde's was the use of kerfed linings on the top instead of tentallones. These guitars were beautifully crafted but the lacquer finish was not polished very well and showed some orange peel. Both had strong voices with good volume and projection. I liked both the negra and blanca.

John Shelton




Guest -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 2 2005 16:09:23)

So What you call the 2 long parrallel braces are a bit like what Torres and later on Bouchet, Friedrich and Romanillos did with 2 braces?

Those constructors arched the lower transverse bar, but I understand from what you say, the braces are joined to the lower transverse bar in a half lab joint?




jshelton5040 -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 2 2005 17:16:43)

The long braces on the Conde are parallel to each other and parallel to the grain of the top, not splayed like Bouchet, etc. These braces are perhaps 10-11 centimeters apart and pass through the lower transverse bar by means of a half-lap...i.e. it appears that a notch is cut into the transverse bar and an matching notch in the strut and they are glued together. They do not pass through an arch.

I am more interested in the wood used for these braces since they did not appear to be spruce or cedar.

Guitar making is eternally fascinating.

John Shelton




Guest -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 3 2005 7:43:03)

quote:

I am more interested in the wood used for these braces since they did not appear to be spruce or cedar.


So am I[;)] If it's some kind of hard wood, it 's revolutionary or at least different. Cant se why using hardwood on the SB though. We are all trying to make everything as light and stiff ass possible, and hardwood is going the other way.

My personal philosofy, is that it's not so much the bracing system, but more so the makers capacity to work the same that matters. I think I can prove that I'm right by mentioning the huge variety of systems that have been used to make world class guitars, and there are still people making wonderfull guitars using Torres pattern.

Anders




TANúñez -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 19 2005 13:52:34)

Hey John,

I see 650 scale Conde's online pretty often but the ones that I have seen in person have all been these monster 664/665 scales.

I really like the playability of both Carpio and Conde's but I like the playability of a Shelton Farretta better. These guitars are so easy to play.

Anders, I know you take great painstaking measures on your setups. From what I have heard from customers of yours they must be a dream to play as well. Can't wait to play one.




Armando -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 28 2005 13:54:59)

Hello

There's so much smoke and mirrors involved with the Conde operation(s) that it's hard to tell which end is up.

Conde Hermanos have at least three differnt locations where they produce their guitars.
The production of most economic models might even be outsourced to valencian guitar factories.
There is a workshop at calle Gravina where probably no guitars are built either. I have been told from somebody who visited the shop, that the shop is too small and doesn't looks like a place where guitars are really built. It's looks more that it has been specially peparred for photo shooting. There's another shop at calle Felipe (Felipe V workshop)
where only the top of the line models are built. They are only named after Felipe V but Felipe himself is not even a luthier. He is in charged only to run the business.
Conde Hermanos guitars are built by a number of different jurneymen. The result is that there are Conde guitars with different tone an quality of workmanship. Some of the guitars have 660 scale and others 650. Most of the Luthiers do change the scale length during their lifetime but nowadays mostly to meet the customers requirement.
Due to the higher string tension and a longer distance for the strings to vibrate, guitars with 660 scale tend to be somewhat louder than guitars with 650 scale. Nevertheless they are more difficult to play than the 650 scale especially for those with small hands.

cheers

Armando




mrstwinkle -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 6 2019 13:36:29)

Proves nothing, but here is a s short vid of the inside of my 1974 RS Carpio blanca.



https://youtu.be/1rZlus0fFIg




etta -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 9 2019 18:03:58)

Just an opinion, but I have tried for several years to find a Conde that had a strong and solid sound. I have played at least 7-8 of them, some shop priced at $7-10,000. They all, without exception, were excessively heavy and sounded lifeless. All of these guitars were from the 1980's to early 2000's. I am sure that some of you play some really nice Condes, but I have not found one.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 9 2019 22:22:35)

Condes are and were sub-contracted by different makers of fine instruments, and for this reason, not all of the Conde brand is going to compare with its originals.

While I was in Madrid in 1965 I met with Faustino Conde at his city store and he showed me a beautifully made Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso flamenco blanca for $350 US dollars.

In retrospect, I should have bought it but I was on a fixed income at the time so I bought a 1965 Jose Ramirez 1-A for 200 Us dollars, and to tell the truth, it was a better guitar than the Conde.

Does this mean that I made the right choice? Most likely if I had bought the Conde and painfully played in the spruce top over a period of years, maybe months, I would have had a better collectable

[:D]




Echi -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 10 2019 8:34:26)

Completely agree.
Btw old Ramirez and 80ies spruce topped Ramirez are definitely underrated guitars.

In general this thread itself is the proof of how mutable are trends and fashions: in 2005 Conde was still considered the top, while today the general consensus is probably (and equally unreasonably) quite different.
30 years ago Torres wasn't as rated as he is nowadays.
Just 20 years ago Bernabé was considered among the best luthiers ever and of the same caliber of Barbero.

Coming back to the thread.

I tried and inspected many Sanchis Carpio.
I generally prefer those made in the last period of Ricardo, before the Sanchis Lopez took over. They are great sounding and quite underrated guitars Imho.
The eighties Sanchis Carpio are instead low pitched and in general not as good and anyway less Condish.
I wouldn't forget that Sanchis Carpio was a company with a good number of employees mostly making studio guitars for other companies (Casa Parramon, Postigo, Conde etc.) and therefore it's good to avoid misunderstandings: cheap Sanchis Carpios are nothing but studio guitars serially made.
Guitars signed and made by Ricardo with premium materials are premium guitars.

Ricardo himself was among the bunch of luthiers making media lunas but the guitars made by him are made with different plantillas and bracing and therefore sound different from a Conde of the same period.

I say "of the same period" because Conde is a 80 years old brand and obviously you can’t compare guitars made 40 years ago with those made today.
Old Condes are different beasts as old Sanchis Carpio etc. Here you have to make a distinction by time and model.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 10 2019 11:44:13)

I tried and inspected many Sanchis Carpio.
I generally prefer those made in the last period of Ricardo, before the Sanchis Lopez took over. They are great sounding and quite underrated guitars Imho......................

...........................................................................................................................

Since I'm not building right now and may not build anymore, I'll tell you a hilarious story; actually true, about a close friend of Sanchis who tried to get him to come take fine tuning lessons from me with the idea that he could make a million dollars from the techniques. We must have talked on the phone for nearly 2 hours.

This was years ago, and this is actually a true story. I won't go into details as all my teaching is proprietary but names are OK to mention.

Mark Usherovich, one of my very close friends and a serious student, just sold a classical guitar to Savage Music Company in New York.

https://www.savageclassical.com/product/2019-mark-usherovich-signature-cedar-pau-ferro/




Ricardo -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 10 2019 12:54:19)

It often amuses me when some folks check out Lamborghini and complain about the price, the heavy clutch, and the sh1ty gas mileage, visibility etc. If you can’t appreciate driving the thing properly, there are other better cars for you. [;)]




Echi -> RE: Conde made by R. S. Carpio (May 10 2019 13:30:44)

I made up a clear opinion about the matter, even though obviously tastes are personal.
My actually favourite guitar is my 81 Conde (I have a '64 as well) so I cannot be accused of being an anti-Conde.
I had for a while a 2007 and a 2003 Conde Felipe V but sincerely I miss more a Sanchis Carpio Bulerias I sold one year ago.

The first guitar is a 2000 (and so) Conde, the second one is a good Sanchis Carpio.







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