Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Full Version)

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britguy -> Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 16 2011 13:49:29)

This may be a luthier question, but I'll try it in here anyway:

I love playing those (pull/hammer-on) 'moorish' rippling grace notes about midway up the first string. But frequently the first string slips off the edge of the fingerboard when pulling. Its an interesting effect but I dont want the extra sharp notes. I'm using medium/high tension strings.

I ordered this guitar built with a 51mm fingerboard, thinking it might make playing easier for my average hands. But the first string is rather close to the edge of the fingerboard. To try to compensate for this I tried sliding the nut about a millimetre towards the bass side. Seems to help, as does pushing the cejilla basswards also.

Two questions here:
(A) Did I make a mistake ordering the narrower fingerboard,
and (B) what effects - if any- will moving the nut and/or cejilla have on the playability, intonation etc. Anybody else tried doing this for whatever reason?

Also - an obvious question - do I need to modify/improve my left hand fingering technique to avoid these 'slip-offs' when pulling the first string??? And, once again, would using Extra High-tension strings help?



Ricardo -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 17 2011 15:27:52)

This is an important topic that almost never comes up I think. I have experienced this often. I also did like you to some guitars, slide the nut towards the basses a little. In many cases the REASON it was happening was because the nut had slipped down toward treble side a hair, so centering the nut fixed the problem. Using the capo I don't recommend as it will affect the tuning, and one of the strings might shift a bit if you grab and bend it downward, and then it feels really weird to have an out of tune guitar with odd string spacing!

Honestly what I found was that this issue is all about the nut itself, the way the slots are cut. I examined many guitars and realized it is a very in-exact science. They are not mathematically even on any guitar I have examined. So you can replace the nut for one that the slots are more close together, so you won't pull the E string off the neck, even if the nut is not centered. Problem is, I personally have gotten used to the wide slot orientation of most concert guitars, vs the tendancy for student models to have the narrow slots...so it actually feels harder to play on the guitars that have the slots closer.

It can take getting used to putting the new nut on, the guitar definitely feels different especially down in first position or so. But for sure you don't want to be accidentally yanking that E string off the fingerboard.

Ricardo



Gimar Yestra -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 17 2011 15:41:31)

A) hard to say if it was a mistake, I'm thinking you should try a new nut, thats been cut to a narrower string spacing, so you wont have to worry about your 1st string sliding of the fretboard anymore.

B) moving the nut up or down wouldnt make a big difference on your intonation (if any) I wouldnt worry to much about that. the cejilla trick on the other hand, as Ricardo sayd, can cause detuning problems.



C. Vega -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 17 2011 15:52:10)

In a well thought out flamenco guitar design not only are the nut grooves slightly offset to the bass side but the bridge is often set over slightly as well to help prevent the very problem that britguy is talking about. The width of the fingerboard doesn't really matter in this particular instance.
My 1973 Manuel Contreras blanca, which has has a rather narrow 50mm fingerboard width at the nut, was made this way so that it has just under 1mm more distance from the edge of the high E string to the edge of the fingerboard than the bass side has. A small amount but it makes a big difference. I've never had a problem with the high E string pulling off the edge of the fingerboard.



beno -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 17 2011 18:35:22)

I dont have that long fingers, but for me the wider neck was much more comfortable . I've played a Conde that had the width at nut somewhere between 53 or 54 mm and felt very comfy. enough space.while played another guitar with 51mm and could really FEEL the difference. that was too narrow....so narrower fingerboard does not necessary mean it's easier to play on. at least not for me...



Gimar Yestra -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 18 2011 20:02:08)

also the neck thickness does alot for the feeling, a thin wide neck can feel more comfortable than a narrow thick neck. (or viceversa)



C. Vega -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 19 2011 3:37:28)

Neither the width of the fingerboard nor the thickness of the neck have anything whatsoever to do with the first string pulling off the edge of the fingerboard.



beno -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 19 2011 7:52:35)

quote:

Neither the width of the fingerboard nor the thickness of the neck have anything whatsoever to do with the first string pulling off the edge of the fingerboard.


I may got something wrong, but if You use a standard string spacing on a 50mm wide or a 54mm wide fretboard that has a LOT to do with....

also the thickness and profile of the neck determines the position (and the feel) of Your hand...

That's simply based on experience.

So would You please explain what You mean???



krichards -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 19 2011 8:02:46)

quote:

But the first string is rather close to the edge of the fingerboard


Thats the problem.
You'll need a new nut making with more space between the top E and the edge



C. Vega -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 19 2011 13:09:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beno

quote:

Neither the width of the fingerboard nor the thickness of the neck have anything whatsoever to do with the first string pulling off the edge of the fingerboard.


I may got something wrong, but if You use a standard string spacing on a 50mm wide or a 54mm wide fretboard that has a LOT to do with....

also the thickness and profile of the neck determines the position (and the feel) of Your hand...

That's simply based on experience.

So would You please explain what You mean???



There is no such thing as "standard string spacing". There are commonly used fingerboard widths and string spacings but they are not by any means "standard".
I totally agree that neck width and thickness can have a lot to do with hand position and feel but the high E string can be pulled off the edge of a 54mm fingerboard just as easily as on a 50mm fingerboard if it's set too close to the edge.
String spacings for a given nut width can be varied (within reason) to suit the individual player and all six can be shifted towards the bass side a little bit to give some extra fingerboard space on the high E side while still maintaining that spacing. The sixth string can sit closer to the fingerboard edge since the left hand has a tendency to pull it toward the center of the fingerboard rather than push it off. However, this alone is often not a totally satisfactory solution as its effect will be noticed primarily in the lower positions and the high E string may still be too close to the edge as one moves up the fingerboard. As I said in my earlier post, offsetting the bridge a bit or perhaps drilling the string holes so they are oriented more toward the bass side can help achieve this extra clearance. Of course this is much easier to do while the instrument is being built rather than after the fact.
Many of the older flamenco guitars by the famous makers that players, collectors and aficionados drool over, like those of Santos Hernandez, Domingo Esteso, etc., have narrow (as compared to what's currently fashionable) fingerboards and I rather doubt that guitarists like Ramon Montoya and Nino Ricardo who played them as their primary instruments had any problems with the high E string slipping off the fingerboard.
If your guitar doesn't allow for a simple change like a new nut that will keep the high E string from slipping off the fingerboard while still maintaining a string spacing that's comfortable for you then you either have to change your playing technique, seriously modify your guitar by moving or re-drilling the bridge or find another instrument. Or you can just live with it.



beno -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 20 2011 13:50:01)

yep, oh well....
I understand what You mean, and of course I don't think the opposite. A much slimmer neck (let's say a neck of an electric guitar) can be set perfectly as well....It's just obvious.
and I admit that I just put word 'standard' for the most frequently used dimensions.... for me a 650mm or 660mm mensure could be standard, while 664 or 670 ISN'T. neither are 50mm nut (at least for me...)

quote:

I ordered this guitar built with a 51mm fingerboard, thinking it might make playing easier for my average hands

I meant to reply to britguy with my first post....

I've played guitars with the same string spacing but different fretboard width, so I may haven't been clear, but there's a Huge difference...

I've also played guitars with the same scale lenght, the same distance from the side of the high E string to the side of the fretboard, yet the neck profile was just a little bit different, so the string started to slide down. The luthier said the exact same, when I complained about it: It's the same distance, though agreed at the end-after trying to play the same pattern on both guitar....

I had a hard time with this issue when I changed guitar in the past, as my previous one had much more thicker neck. I also thought the thinner the neck the easier to play on....at first time I've experienced the opposite. I had to slowly get used to the new shape...

all I wanted to add that it's just not that simple like a distance in mm



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Fingerboard width and first string clearance? (Sep. 20 2011 15:47:42)

Britguy
In order to know if the 51mm was a mistake. Make a new nut or have someone make it for you.
Make the center of the nut 1 mm offset to the bass side, 4-5mm distance from the treble edge of the fingerboard to the first string and 3-4mm from the bass edge of the fingerboard to the 6th string.
If you still get pulling offs or if you feel the strings are to close, then the the 51mm width of your fingerboard is to narrow.
I very seldom build more narrow than 52mm only if the client insist very hard or if the client is VERY small.



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