Obsolete compas patterns??? (Full Version)

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nospoonboy -> Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 19:32:54)

I was recently browsing Amazon and came across this review of "Guitar Atlas: Flamenco" by Dennis Koster.

The reviewer said:

"This is an attempt to teach flamenco the way it was before Camaron and Paco revololutionized it, but even then it's completely wrong. Flamenco was never played like this - ever.
This is a classical guitar player faking it.

For real Flamenco, only the didactic videos made by the Swiss company Encuentro exist. Some of these are good and others are mediocre, but at least they contain real flamenco played by real flamencos. No one in flamenco ever heard of any of these other people who have written flamenco guitar books.

The Paco Pena Toques Flamenco book is the only thing showing the old way that's even close. It's a source of traditional falsetas but the compas patterns are obsolete. PIP falsetas are also obsolete.

Don't take my word for anything, go to Spain and find out for yourself."

So is it only in Spain where they are playing "real" Flamenco? What does this guy mean by "obsolete compas patterns"?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

-Stephen



C. Vega -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 19:49:00)

The reviewer that nospoonboy quotes is obviously a complete and total moron. Just because something is "old" doesn't necessarily mean it's obsolete.
I'd be willing to bet that damn few, if any, "real" flamencos ever heard of this jackass reviewer either.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 20:33:45)

so here's another can of worms, which could evolve into a huge heated discussion...

i tend to agree with the reviewer: "No one in flamenco ever heard of any of these other people who have written flamenco guitar books." - except that there are exceptions, Paco Pena as he mentions, but there's also Manolo Sanlúcar for example...

compás patterns and finger usage being obsolete, well not obsolete, but surely, less frequently used as most young players tend to copy more modern players who preferred different techniques...of course, lovers of the traditional toque take offense, but there's no need to, the word usage is harsh, but essentially is not very far from the truth...



nospoonboy -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 20:36:12)

Thanks for the reply! As a beginner I do not understand what the reviewer is talking about.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 20:43:06)

it needs to be added, that these very books are indeed a very good starting point for beginner flamenco guitarists, so it really doesn't matter who publishes them (that's why Juan Martín topics are so popular here [:D])...and even the most modern flamenco guitarist needs to learn PiP falsetas and old style compás patterns...



estebanana -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 20:43:44)

That person reviewing Koster's book knows nothing. He's full of bull.

I was in a group class many years ago that David Serva was teaching and a guy with a slicked back mullet hair cut and a cajon piped up and said to David: "Why don't you teach the more modern proper way of doing compas?" David just looked at him and said there's no such thing as old or modern compas. There's just compas, you are either in or out of compas.

Then he went on to demonstrate some very modern ways of playing falsetas in triplet bass lines, then said oh this is Ramon Montoya from the 1920's - 30's ~ zing ~

Every great guitarist I've met or seen from Spain could play you the history of the toque in several styles. Koster's books are very rooted in Sabicas' playing and beyond, for some one to not understand the intrinsic value of this is pretty lame and amateurish. In my view of flamenco a person does not have the right put down or belittle a tradition or style of toque unless they can play it and play it well.



nospoonboy -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 20:44:56)

I truly do not mean to open a "can of worms"...

I have been playing blues/jazz for 30 years and only recently began playing flamenco.

I fell in love with the playing of Pepe Habichuela, but I am not yet able to play his pieces. So I have been looking for music to get me to that level.

I don't want to learn "wrong" ways of playing that I will need to UNLEARN.



nospoonboy -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 20:47:22)

Thank you Stephen!

I really appreciate the story!



estebanana -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 21:04:11)

quote:

I fell in love with the playing of Pepe Habichuela, but I am not yet able to play his pieces. So I have been looking for music to get me to that level.

I don't want to learn "wrong" ways of playing that I will need to UNLEARN.


There's not much wrong with listening to the history of the toque and the teachers who have written about it. You have to soak up a lot of information and sort it out. Stylistically one era is the foundation for the next era, you can't study that idea too much. A far as playing wrong and un learing things the mechanics of right and left hand technique is important. Taking lessons with good player who knows right hand technique and compas is important. Style you can work through, form older to more recent and still not have to unlearn anything.

Many falsetas and the way palos are played depend on knowing about the past. Lot's of modern players base much of their person style on the very oldest styles, but they personalize it and make it modern. I've seen Antonio Rey, as modern as can, be throw in the very oldest most well known falsetas when he accompanies. Many flamenco guitar teachers advocate knowing as much as a possible about the toque from the very beginning because you can build with it.



nospoonboy -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 21:18:33)

quote:

toque


That makes a lot of sense. I plan on joining Jason McGuire's website soon and look forward to learning much from everyone here.

You are all very generous to share your knowledge! Thanks again!



XXX -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 21:18:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

so here's another can of worms, which could evolve into a huge heated discussion...


[:D][:D]

I agree the reviewer being a little ill knowledged. I can show you a super modern PiP falseta. But I dont share the suggestion that there is no difference between modern and old compas patterns only because there is one pattern that sounds modern but is actually old. Again I could give some examples of playing which Im pretty sure you wont find in older dated stuff.
Outdated music, I think this does exist. I dont think that a buleria performance as it was common in the old days with non dynamic bashing palmas and monotonous guitar playing would appeal to many people these days IMO.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 21:35:08)

quote:

The reviewer that nospoonboy quotes is obviously a complete and total moron.


That’s certainly my impression as well. Dennis’s teacher (and mine) was Mario Escudero. That was in the days when Mario and Sabas hung out all the time, so that if you around one you were around the other.

Remember too that Lucía knew Ricardo’s music backwards and forwards before he started being revololutionary. I shall own myself astonished if our reviewer can claim the same.



estebanana -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 21:52:22)

quote:

But I dont share the suggestion that there is no difference between modern and old compas patterns only because there is one pattern that sounds modern but is actually old.


The point David was making was to show the person that there no reason to have an attitude about what is old and new. His idea was can you play any of it in compas? Once you can play in compas it's a matter of shifting the emphasis of different parts of the compas to be a modern interpretation of compas or an older interpretation. Compas never changed, only how the player chooses to express certain parts of the compas.

I did not respond, but I was appalled that someone wrote the other day falsetas of the past only began on 12 and 1 and ended on 10. ..



estebanana -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 21:54:30)

quote:

Remember too that Lucía knew Ricardo’s music backwards and forwards before he started being revololutionary. I shall own myself astonished if our reviewer can claim the same.


There's a recording of Paco playing with Ricardo, it's pretty cool.



estebanana -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 21:57:59)

I guess what pisses me off is when know nothings throw around words like 'Obsolete'. it; obsolete,it's not obsolete, it's part of the history. But just when you think it's obsolete watch some great player throw it out there or quote it. If you don't know it in the first place you'll miss the quote.

Anyway, I need to go sand something and calm down.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Sep. 10 2011 22:55:24)

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Ricardo -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 10 2011 23:23:45)

Without getting mad about, the simple fact is that when some student acquire a certain amount of knowledge and learn that they had a few miss concepts at first makes em very angry and they start lashing out at methods designed for beginners and general population of guitar students. It is a phase they go through (such as learning to flick a rasgueado off the thumb, then they suddenly think ALL rasgueados must be that way....and it is MODERN too...and any and all other ways to do it must be old fashioned.[8|])

but they eventually grow out of it and look back and realize certain info was actually valid all along, a lot of modern music does not escape some basic roads mapped out by montoya and others, and all technique from all periods are still valid. But it takes time that is all. Don't get all bent out of shape about it. The basic point is that method books don't necessarily take you from A to Z with flamenco. But it is ok to start just about anywhere so long as you keep your mind and your ears open to all avenues. Only think I want to point at is that as compas patterns go, even old styles, the authentic techniques are not easy. I am skeptical about "graduating" methods, or supposed "easy" flamenco...the basics are a challenge. Even just pulgar can be a challenge.

Ricardo



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nospoonboy -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 11 2011 0:43:16)

I really appreciate all the conversations here.

At least now I know that there are many variations with the "tradition."

Thanks again!



bursche -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 11 2011 0:53:35)

quote:

PIP falsetas are also obsolete.

And now: Mr. Serling



estebanana -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 11 2011 1:54:33)

That's very interesting what happens at 7:00 but Luis Pena and his buddies are not your usual contemporary flamencos. They have made it a point to specifically work on older styles. They are influenced by Funi, Paco Valdepenas and Ansonini. I think when they speak about anejo they are in a way giving an homage to that which went before and stating a preference of how they like to do things.

Not that I would argue with what they do, I've enjoyed them every time I've seen them. If you had to give what they do a silly flamencologo name you could call them Post Camaronian Neo Festeros............but hardly the last word on where to put the corte' today....[:D]

I have a friend who was very close to Ansonini and he made a recording of him speaking, they were having a conversation like they had many times. Ansonini could speak in compas and on this recording he is in fact talking in compas. My buddy played this tape for Luis Pena and I remember watching from across the room Luis being quiet for about five minutes while he took this thing in. I wish I could have met Ansonini myself, but the tape of him speaking is helpful to getting and idea of how he was.

And in the end I will concede that most pre Paco falsetas begin on 12 or 1 and end on 10- except for the ones that begin on 3 and come out on 6 and tread water until 10. Or the ones which begin on 10 and come out on 12.......or the dancers that stop somewhere between 6 and half and 9 and then magically hover until they mark the 10 in someway. So anejo as the fellows call it is more complicated than 12, 1 and 10, but I guess that's the arte' the old fart was missing out. What was cool was that Luis said that old fart who said This ain't a flamenco bar was not Andalusian. " he was born here but he's insensitive to the arte'......or something like that.

It's nice to see that film again I remember seeing it in the Albatross bar in Berkeley CA before it was released to the public.



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estebanana -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 11 2011 3:25:31)

Dude, you are so pedantic you're not even fun.

The point was, Ansonini often spoke in compas and there's tape of it . Compas is not obsolete, new, old or whatever. What I got from that lesson was that compas for Ansonini was way of being.

As for your accusation of flamenco elitism or whatever you implied, which I don't appreciate at all, I simply seek out people who know a lot about flamenco and absorb what they offer to teach and share. I really know very little and I apologize for sharing something I thought was terrifically unusual and interesting.



Harry -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 11 2011 3:27:08)

quote:

I fell in love with the playing of Pepe Habichuela, but I am not yet able to play his pieces. So I have been looking for music to get me to that level.

I don't want to learn "wrong" ways of playing that I will need to UNLEARN.


You are very very correct in this. You must learn the right way from the start as much as possible. So often when we are learning and working in isolation as many of us are, you will develop bad habits. Keep things very simple at first, focus on learning how to hammer out compas using chords mostly. Even if you can play a difficult falseta because you have the dexterity, don't do it until you feel the compas deeply.

You need a good teacher to show you the technique, and I recommend listening to Ramon Montoya, Sabicas, Nino Ricardo, early Paco and then take it from there. It is crucial to listen to a lot of old cante so you can hear just a singer, guitarist and some palmas.

Pepe Habicuela is right at the crossroads of modern and traditional. He plays many modernized falsetas of Montoya and others. But so does everyone. An interesting chord change in many of Nino Ricardo's recordings has been used to explore many abstract ideas by other guitarists such as Paco etc...You often only realize this when you learn how to play these falsetas and see the organic development of flamenco guitar. It is ridiculous to dismiss flamenco before Paco and Camaron, and anyone starting to play flamenco guitar should probably stay away from Paco's repertoire for the first few years. I remember listening to it daily, but still trying to learn the basics from Montoya and Nino Ricardo recordings.



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nospoonboy -> RE: Obsolete compas patterns??? (Sep. 11 2011 17:20:41)

>Harry, thank you for the advice! Very helpful indeed. I am thankful that I have collected flamenco records for many years and have many recordings of Sabicas, Ricardo, Montoya, and a pretty large collection of cante as well.

Every art goes through periods of evolution/revolution.

I see the same development in jazz (from swing to bebop to modal to hardbop to fusion...etc. etc. etc.)...point is that it is ALL jazz. But styles will always have those that are "purists."

I am just thankful that there are people here who are willing to share their perspective and much experience.

Thank you again everyone!



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