Fast pimami anyone? (Full Version)

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gshaviv -> Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 24 2005 15:29:40)

I never quite manage to get my pimami arpegios fast enough to my satisfaction. This arpegios often comes up as a sixtuple and when I try to play it fast it does't come out even. I always seem to take a little longer going down (ami) then going up (pima). Its frustrating as I have either to not do it, or slow down the rest of my playing just to do a pimami sixtuple.

Anyone has some tips on how to get a fast and even pimami arpegios?



Doitsujin -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 24 2005 16:54:47)

Often its not a problem of the ami.
The problem is between the thumb and i in both directions. This have to be even to im ma ma mi.
When imami is perfect, check your thumb.
I hope I could help a bit.



Ricardo -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 24 2005 17:38:13)

Yup, I find the problem is the way it feels to reverse direction smooth, and the problem occurs between a-m. I pulled this from something I posted on another forum:

quote:

I made this excercise for a student. It focuses on the M finger because that is where the moving melody is. The rhythm is important. 5 note phrases stopping on the 5th note (M finger), like sextuplets w/ one note missing. The pattern is pimam pimam etc.

E-----------0--------------0----------------0----------------0----
B--------3----3---------1----1----------0----0-----------1----1-
G-----0---------------0---------------0----------------0----------
D-------------------2--------------------------------2-------------
A--3-------------------------------3--------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------------

E----------0----------------0-----------------0---------------0----
B-------3----3----------1-----1-----------0----0----------1----1-
G----0---------------0------------------0---------------0----------
D------------------2----------------------------------2-------------
A-0----------------------------------0------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------------

Same pattern on these chords and repeat all:

E--0--0--0--0----0--0--0--0-
B--3--1--0--1----3--1--0--1-
G--2--2--2--2----0--0--0--0-
D------0-----0--------0-----0-
A-------------------------------
E--1------1-------3------3-----

Once you can get it going fast and loud, w/ control over rhythm, add index (Gstring open) to the end of the pattern to make a complete sextuplet phrase pimami, pimami etc. Hope this helps.

Ricardo

Ps, flamenco players should be playing rest strokes w/ p, and leaving it down on the adjacent string when possible.



gshaviv -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 24 2005 18:17:59)

Thanks Ricardo, the problem is indeed between the a-m. Seems like the it takes time to get the m back to the string after it hit it going up. I'll try the excercise you suggested, let you know how it goes.



antonio -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 25 2005 11:37:01)

quote:

I never quite manage to get my pimami arpegios fast enough to my satisfaction.

I have the same problem. One thing I believeI was doing wrong ( although pros play at such speed that you're not sure)was putting the accent (emphasis) on the "m".
As an exercise, I play softly and I accent the "a "with a strong rest-stroke. Then I try to raise the speed but keeping this "a" well defined.
Hope this is not too confusing.



Jim Opfer -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 25 2005 15:59:28)

Hi,

I suggest you practice by playing the arpeggio on a table top with your nails and concentrate on eveness of the tapping. The percussive roll will let you hear where your problem is and if you focus your effort there, it'll get sorted.

Cheers
Jim.



rickm -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 25 2005 16:11:06)

my classical teacher had me practice staccato and planting even in this application - the same strategy that has been described here for picado and tremelo. the other thing he mentioned is going very slowly as we tend to know, but when doing so, strike, relax, prepare, strike, relax that finger, prepare etc etc etc until you are so sick of doing it never mind



Ron.M -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 25 2005 20:46:46)

I don't get this "even" arpegio myself....[:-]
Arpegio is arpegio, as long as it's done in the same time span, then who cares?
Asymmetrical arpegio is normal and often used as a "feature" in Flamenco, the degree and amount of asymmetry adding to the rhythm and effect of the passage.
Listen to lots of Fandangos de Huelva, and you'll hear what I'm talking about.
The arpegio is very "syncopated" in accent and will even change bar by bar, through being even on the forward, slower on the back, thru being very even both ways, and back to being lop-sided, but this time faster on the reverse arpegio.

They used to say that Classical players were actually frustrated Flamenco players, but on reading some of the technical stuff on the Forum over the last few months, I sorta feel that maybe some players here may be better suited to taking up Classical?

cheers

Ron (stirrin' it again..[:D])



Ricardo -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 26 2005 5:23:33)

Ron, what happened to my rhythm guy?
quote:

I'm not talking about not keeping timing, but the difference between being on the beat and right, smackaroonie , in the (Jack Nicholson), goddamn centre of that beat!


Ha, I dug that one up! Really man, I think if a student doesn't work on this thing steady, smooth, and "Spot on", then it will never sound quite right, even when playing "libre" or deliberately stretching the tempo. It has to be "como el agua" you know? That won't be achieved unless a smooth rhythmic flow is worked on at some point.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 26 2005 8:34:34)

Yeah Ricardo, but what I'm saying is that if the thumb stroke is defining each beat, then so long as that is dead on, then any asymmetry in the arpegio (or tremelo) just adds "colour" or style. It doesn't interfere with the rhythm.
The reason I bring these things up from time to time is in case any guys just starting out on Flamenco guitar read this stuff and get the false idea that an incredible technique is required to play basic Flamenco and get disheartened.
The problem I think guitarists who haven't been brought up in a Flamenco environment have, is much more to do with compás, rhythm and tone, rather than technique.
The classic one IMO is striving for the very equally spaced strokes in rasgueado.
While that is good to have, it would be boring to play ras like that all the time.
A lot of the great Gitano style rasgueado stuff I hear is pretty ragged and lop sided, but has cojones. [:D]

cheers

Ron



rickm -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 26 2005 12:15:35)

[Hey Mr. Ricardo, kind of a cool tune, find a good singer and record it.

made this excercise for a student. It focuses on the M finger because that is where the moving melody is. The rhythm is important. 5 note phrases stopping on the 5th note (M finger), like sextuplets w/ one note missing. The pattern is pimam pimam etc.

E-----------0--------------0----------------0----------------0----
B--------3----3---------1----1----------0----0-----------1----1-
G-----0---------------0---------------0----------------0----------
D-------------------2--------------------------------2-------------
A--3-------------------------------3--------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------------

E----------0----------------0-----------------0---------------0----
B-------3----3----------1-----1-----------0----0----------1----1-
G----0---------------0------------------0---------------0----------
D------------------2----------------------------------2-------------
A-0----------------------------------0------------------------------
E--------------------------------------------------------------------

Same pattern on these chords and repeat all:

E--0--0--0--0----0--0--0--0-
B--3--1--0--1----3--1--0--1-
G--2--2--2--2----0--0--0--0-
D------0-----0--------0-----0-
A-------------------------------
E--1------1-------3------3-----

Once you can get it going fast and loud, w/ control over rhythm, add index (Gstring open) to the end of the pattern to make a complete sextuplet phrase pimami, pimami etc. Hope this helps. [/quote]



flamencoguru -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 26 2005 17:10:47)

I'm surprised nobody has suggested the Mauro Giuliani 120 right hand excercises. I think they are great. They are pretty much a standard in classical guitar. They would work great for flamenco guitarists too. I recommend them to everyone. They're great for warm ups and isolating difficult arpeggios. It has about every combination imaginable.

Give them a try. You can actually buy it on Amazon.com for about $8.00 USD. It's a great investment.

Mauro Giuliani 120 Studies for Right Hand Development



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 26 2005 20:36:27)

Hi guys, just back from Honolulu to visit my family. Ah...what a great vacation. Anyways, back to work!

to get a fast pimami, there is a solution that has not been mentioned here. It consists of

1) the full plant, and
2) breaking it into pim and ami

The full plant is, I feel a quick way to get a hold of this "effect". Some may feel that it is cheating, but it is merely a path to the sound you want. To start, place pima on the strings, and pluck them all together. Then do it so they are briefly staggered, a roll. It should sound almost like a strum. Work on getting them to sound like seperate strokes and not melt into each other sloppily.

The other thing is that what we have can be considered to be a composite of pim and ami--two seperate moves that are to be musically heard as one arpeggio. However, the technique is really two "programs"--onefor pim and the other for ami. Practice planting each as mentioned in the preceding paragraphs. The second step is to merge them together quickly--two "plants" for one arpeggio.

You should find that you can achieve all the speed you need very quickly with these methods. The more time consuming part is to achieve the seperation and proper attack, that is the "sound".



Jamey -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 27 2005 1:59:47)

I think of all the techniques, this is the one I have the most trouble with. I can play a double arpeggio but when I need to do so at great speed, everything falls apart. I notice a definite increase in tension when I try to play it faster. I feel it in my hand, arm and shoulder. It's almost as if I'm unconsciously tensing up in anticipation of it.

Very frustrating. Mike I'm going to try your approach.



ToddK -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Apr. 27 2005 2:33:46)

It always helped me alot to accent each note.

Practice accenting the thumb, then accent the A , then the M,and so forth.

It feels strange at first, to accent on odd notes/strings, but it really
helps solidify each move in the arpeggio.

I have also found, at least for myself, its been helpful for me to
go away from the opposing/ wave like motion. I mentally picture
my fingers as working isolated within arpeggios.
I dont know[8D] It works for me.[:D]

It seems like it has less tension that way for some reason.

TK



Jurriaan -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Aug. 15 2015 11:42:31)

Yes, this is exactly my problem - when playing double arpeggio my m finger is imprecise when doing the backward arpeggio. I was wondering about it - why can I hit the string precisely with the m finger during the forward arpeggio but not with the backward arpeggio?

I was thinking that it might has something to do with the m and a finger being less independent than i and m, and maybe moving the a finger at the end of your forward arpeggio causes your m finger to be out of position.

Thanks for the exercise suggestion, very helpful.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Aug. 15 2015 16:23:55)

Interesting to see a thread from a decade ago continued in such a way. Especially since I was part of the conversation.

Looking back, it seems to me all the advice is applicable, even though it is different and may even conflict. This just goes to show that trying things different ways, that attacking a problem from different angles is helpful. Also that "everything helps". Technique is wide and it really doesn't hurt to spend time on each different circumstance, each different way.

Todd's comment about ignoring the wave motion and focusing on independent action makes total sense. It helps to work this way. Each finger moving as if it did not share any tendons or connections with the others. Complete independence. The rest of the hand totally relaxed, almost dead. This is good practice and also helps to diagnose unnecessary tension. Philip Hii talks about this in his book. He also advises to practice imami, over and over again, totally relaxed, and to work that ex. up to high speeds.

But the wave like motions or sequences, bursts, etc. are also important. They are the "fast imami program" we have to use at speed.

The am in reality is one motion, kind of a combined, staggered stroke. It wouldn't hurt to practice it thoroughly.

VillaLobos' Etude #1 will help this and any other arpeggio.



Dudnote -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Aug. 15 2015 16:39:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
The am in reality is one motion, kind of a combined, staggered stroke. It wouldn't hurt to practice it thoroughly.

It's been said on the foro before, but another great exercise for a m independance is practicing all your picado exercises with am, ai, mi and always alternate the starting finger.

Arpegios were explained to me as a scissor technique, the finger playing and the finger that just played simultaneously travel in opposite directions. You can work on this scissor motion anywhere you find yourself without your guitar.



Jurriaan -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Aug. 24 2015 9:44:57)

I wasn't aware of the fact that I was continuing a decade old thread. There is some great advice to be found here in the archives of Foro Flamenco. Hell, you could produce a pretty amazing flamenco technique book out of all the advice on this forum.

Last week I have been using Ricardo's exercise (play double arpeggio but end each one with planting on m finger), and I noticed some progress already.

Thanks and see you around on the forum



Ricardo -> RE: Fast pimami anyone? (Aug. 24 2015 17:24:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jurriaan

I wasn't aware of the fact that I was continuing a decade old thread. There is some great advice to be found here in the archives of Foro Flamenco. Hell, you could produce a pretty amazing flamenco technique book out of all the advice on this forum.

Last week I have been using Ricardo's exercise (play double arpeggio but end each one with planting on m finger), and I noticed some progress already.

Thanks and see you around on the forum



Hey you are welcome. After 10 years of arguments it is great to finally have some vindication! [:D] (just kidding)



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