Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Full Version)

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Don Dionisio -> Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Sep. 1 2011 13:42:49)

Wow! I just got this in the mail yesterday and cannot stop listening to it.
This is cante y guitarra at its finest. So far, the standouts are the masterfully/artfully accompanied 'Taranto'. The interplay of the cante and toque
is just beautiful. The sound is very warm (editing and mastering by ToddK). The Solea is so passionate. I would describe the accompaniment as restrained passion; Ricardo matches the singers emotional intensity, but makes sure he doesn't get in his way. The two solos are also a nice diversion-the Fandangos solo segways beautifully into the Fandangos naturales (thanks to the fine editing).
This is something to be celebrated-a proud example of two talented musicians
coming together to produce great art.
I congratulate Ricardo and Jesus for this fine recording.
Ole, enhorabuena.
Dennis



ralexander -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Sep. 1 2011 13:56:29)

dang, I meant to order this when it was first posted and I totally forgot - thanks for the reminder and the review :)



HolyEvil -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Sep. 1 2011 22:57:50)

you can get it off itunes.. much easier that way. then you can burn a copy for the car if you want.. and it's 256kbps as well. don't have to wait for delivery.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Sep. 2 2011 1:46:02)

Thanks for the reminders, guys. Just listened to samples on iTunes and bought the album. Great job Ricardo, Jesus and Todd!

RNJ



Ricardo -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Sep. 2 2011 8:58:58)

Thanks guys!

That fandangos was the way it happened live, but I wanted him to just come out singing at the end of my solo from back stage and sort of surprise everyone. I had to edit the two as separate tracks with a break because Jesus introduces it verbally while I was playing the lead in...I wanted him to just come out and shock the audience. But it is cool anyway as separate tracks, so enjoy!

Ricardo



kudo -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Sep. 2 2011 13:19:28)

quote:

Fandangos naturales

thats the only thing I didnt really get, whats naturales? I thought Fandangos came in the name of towns, like de Huelva , de etc. ?

I just bought Ricardo's album from itunes right after I read this first post in the topic. im listening to Taranto, as im typing this post, oh yes, very well balanced accompaniment and sweet falsetas. I love this traditional album alot more than the previous modern album of his.



Don Dionisio -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Sep. 2 2011 14:18:20)

I think both of Ricardo's albums are 1st rate and show his ability to be
creative both in a live (spontaneous setting) and in the studio (planned situation). I only wish that these recordings could make it into the hands of Spanish radio (like Nuestro Flamenco or Duendeando). Perhaps, they could...



Ricardo -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Sep. 2 2011 19:59:40)

quote:

thats the only thing I didnt really get, whats naturales? I thought Fandangos came in the name of towns, like de Huelva , de etc. ?


Fandangos from Huelva began to evolve and take on personalized characteristics by various singers (example Fandango de Gloria, or Cepero, or Manuel Torre, Caracol, etc), so aficionados started to call them fandangos personales, as each one was personalized (not necessarily from a region once you leave Huelva). Also the term fandango naturales is used, perhaps because the liberation from strict compas allows for a more free and natural expression? Yet other singers liked to think of the new styles of fandangos as more "jondo" like cante jondo of solea or siguiriyas, or cante grande vs cante chico (that is not so heavy and deep, more fun up beat songs like Buleria or alegria, tanguillos etc). So they called em "fandango grande", as opposed the "fandanguillo" which would be the little folk songs from huelva. For me that term just sounds kind of arrogant, and it seems many aficionados feel that these cantes are not "cante grande".

So you will see Fandango de Huelva, or Fandanguillo (conversely I think that term belittles the styles from huelva) used inter changeably, and more specific terms for which ever fandango it is from Huelva (example, Fandango de Alosno, or de Perez Guzman, or de Paco Toronjo etc all from Huelva).

Then you have more free style ones referred to as either fandango grande, fandango naturales, fandango personales, or simply fandango, or more specific fandango de....... who ever created the style.

These free style ones supposedly evolved into the more regional ones such as granadinas, malagueñas, cantes de la mina (taranto taranta etc), since they are all based on the same structure. But it seems that even these terms are not necessarily about the region as their creators could have been from some other region. (Example, Chacon was from Jerez but created models for granaina and media granaina, or Mellizo from Cadiz has a popular malagueña etc). Sometimes the lyrics will describe the region (Alhambra, Albayzin etc), but not necessarily.

So anyway I could have called those tracks "fandangos" or "fandango grande" or "fandango personales", but I just prefer the sound of "naturales". The actual fandangos that Jesus sings are Gloria, Sevillano, Caracol, Farina, and a bit of his own style too. He calls the form "fandango grande" himself.

Ricardo



NormanKliman -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 5 2011 7:02:42)

quote:

These free style ones supposedly evolved into the more regional ones such as granadinas, malagueñas, cantes de la mina (taranto taranta etc),


No, the folkloric regional fandangos (=cantes abandolaos like verdiales, fandangos de Lucena, fandangos de Granada, jaberas, rondeña, etc.) are thought to be the origin of the cantes levantinos (=malagueñas, granaínas, cantes mineros). So the straight ternary rhythm of the cantes abandolaos is behind the cantes levantinos. Nearly all fandangos de Huelva and sevillanas share a two-part ternary rhythm (1-2-3-4-5-6), although the connection is becoming blurred with the passing of time.

Cantes abandolaos are from southeastern Spain, on the other side of the country from Huelva.



odinz -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 5 2011 14:36:33)

Ricardo man, I am going to buy all of your stuff when I get money for it, your physical cds ship to europe right?[:D]



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 5 2011 15:35:24)

quote:

Nearly all fandangos de Huelva and sevillanas share a two-part ternary rhythm (1-2-3-4-5-6), although the connection is becoming blurred with the passing of time.


Indeed. If you’re used to counting in threes, that being emphasised can be disconcerting the first time you hear it.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 5 2011 15:37:35)

quote:

So you will see Fandango de Huelva, or Fandanguillo (conversely I think that term belittles the styles from huelva) used inter changeably, and more specific terms for which ever fandango it is from Huelva (example, Fandango de Alosno, or de Perez Guzman, or de Paco Toronjo etc all from Huelva).


Is there a specific name for the part of FdH that goes to A major? I was once told that this was fandangos de Alosno, but now of course I know I was misinformed…



Ricardo -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 7 2011 9:00:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

quote:

These free style ones supposedly evolved into the more regional ones such as granadinas, malagueñas, cantes de la mina (taranto taranta etc),


No, the folkloric regional fandangos (=cantes abandolaos like verdiales, fandangos de Lucena, fandangos de Granada, jaberas, rondeña, etc.) are thought to be the origin of the cantes levantinos (=malagueñas, granaínas, cantes mineros). So the straight ternary rhythm of the cantes abandolaos is behind the cantes levantinos. Nearly all fandangos de Huelva and sevillanas share a two-part ternary rhythm (1-2-3-4-5-6), although the connection is becoming blurred with the passing of time.

Cantes abandolaos are from southeastern Spain, on the other side of the country from Huelva.


Makes sense, the melodic connections are obvious. I wonder if you feel the regional "free" forms evolved the same way as the fandangos naturales did, and at the same time? And then of course we ask which came first....fandango de lucena etc, or Fandango de huelva?

My personal feeling of the melodic rhythm connection was that the Huelva songs seem more structured and clearly "square" if you will (but is that the origin of form or did the songs evolve into that?) Whereas the Rondeñas, Fandango de Lucena etc always seemed more like the free cante melody loosely fitted over the 3 beat compas. Not unlike the way cante mineros are done por baile now a days. But that could be my experience through certain personal interpretaions.



Ricardo -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 7 2011 9:12:24)

quote:

Is there a specific name for the part of FdH that goes to A major? I was once told that this was fandangos de Alosno, but now of course I know I was misinformed…


Fandangos de Calaña and other versions of the same type of melody I have heard called Santa Barbara or Santa Eulalia, probably others, too much for me to keep track.

The naturales personalized version I know of is by Sevillano. (Jesus did his version of that one on the live CD).

Fandango de Alosno is like what they do in the Flamenco movie of Saura.



NormanKliman -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 7 2011 14:59:22)

quote:

I wonder if you feel the regional "free" forms evolved the same way as the fandangos naturales did, and at the same time?
I dunno, I just repeat what I read in books, at least the stuff that stands up to a bit of analysis and experience.

Malagueñas and cantes mineros go back to the café cantante period of the 1880s or even further, depending on the references, but fandangos naturales seem to have appeared in the first decade of the 20th century. I think that's a generous enough estimate, taking into account what's on recordings and going back a bit further to allow for development over time. Antonio Chacón (b. 1869) probably didn't sing them but José Cepero (b. 1888) did. Some of the early recordings of Cepero's granaínas sound like fandangos naturales insofar as the duration of each sung line and the way the lines of verse are strung together. Granaínas don't really show up on recordings until about the same time as the fandangos naturales, from the 1920s onward.

quote:

...(but is that the origin of form or did the songs evolve into that...

quote:

But that could be my experience through certain personal interpretaions.


It's really hard to make conclusive statements. Not just our window of experience at this point in time, but also the average human lifespan and the advent of recording technology.

quote:

Whereas the Rondeñas, Fandango de Lucena etc always seemed more like the free cante melody loosely fitted over the 3 beat compas.


Yeah, I think fandangos de Huelva might be centuries old. There's been a theory around for a few decades that suggests that all of the fandango-based cantes were developed from a Moorish prototype, but, as they say in Mundo y Formas (about other cantes), "Who ever heard that?" In any case, I think the cantes abandolaos are pretty old, too. I'm sure you've seen those groups called "pandas" that play verdiales with the screechy violin and the funny hats. That must go way back in time (especially if young people today are still doing it, ha-ha). Just a guess.



TANúñez -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 7 2011 21:32:19)

I didn't know this existed until I was doing some reading on the foro today. Bought it this morning. Wow Ricardo. Very good stuff man. Been listening to it all day and I'm really digging it.



Ricardo -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 7 2011 22:03:19)

quote:

Antonio Chacón (b. 1869) probably didn't sing them but José Cepero (b. 1888) did. Some of the early recordings of Cepero's granaínas sound like fandangos naturales insofar as the duration of each sung line and the way the lines of verse are strung together.


Yeah that is right, no Fandangos by Chacon. Now I think I remember reading that Fandangos naturales/grandes etc were not simply evolutions of Huelva folk songs, but were heavily influenced by Malagueñas. So it seems the Huelva style is first, then this weird Abanolao version of the same type of song but where the singers give the WRONG note for the chord (dominant 7 implied but not played), then these guys started to slow down all the different Abandolaos until you had essentially free style malagueñas that lead to Granainas and Cante de la minas styles (still with those weird wrong dominant 7th notes to the normal huelva form) at which point the actual fandangos forms started to get affect with the time stretching until they were freer and more ornate (yet with actual in-key notes for the chords [8|]) or were even set to more flamenco type compases such as solea, or totally free style.

Does that sound more like it?

Oh about the weird dom7th notes, here is what I mean:

In fandangos the chords are lead by the singers guide tone, usually for C you hear a C or an E or even G. Next, depending on range and style the F chord is lead by a final F or A note. Then back to C with an E note usually. Then G is given with G or B. etc.

For most all the malagueñas and Verdiales stuff the same harmonic form is used, but the guide notes are strange. For the first C sometimes an F natural is held. Next for the F chord, a Bb is held. For me these are sus 4ths or else you can think of the 7ths of dominant 7th chords and the guitar answers by resolving FOR the singer rather then with him or her. Only the G chord in the middle is clearly called in by the singers note, a G or B usually. And then the final F chord before resolve is often called in again with that Bb in the melody.

Fandango de Lucena seems to be the precursor of Taranto with the same idea of Fandango form but weird notes called in. It goes as far as have the Bb move down to F...a clear V7/IV move yet the guitar sticks to fandango form and moves to C!! But the Taranto family keeps that idea.

Still I find it strange these all evolved sooner then good ol' clean and clear basic fandango form with notes in key that the guitar responds to. Of all the levante forms it seems Granaina is the one that sticks to the fandango form more clearly, with Chacon's versions being an exception doing more or less the same thing as the malagueñas as described above.

Ricardo



NormanKliman -> RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (Dec. 9 2011 8:25:13)

quote:

So it seems the Huelva style is first, then this weird Abanolao version of the same type of song but where the singers give the WRONG note for the chord (dominant 7 implied but not played), then these guys started to slow down all the different Abandolaos until you had essentially free style malagueñas that lead to Granainas and Cante de la minas styles (still with those weird wrong dominant 7th notes to the normal huelva form) at which point the actual fandangos forms started to get affect with the time stretching until they were freer and more ornate (yet with actual in-key notes for the chords ) or were even set to more flamenco type compases such as solea, or totally free style.

Does that sound more like it?


Yes, but I don't think there's any proof that the Huelva styles came first. I said upthread that fandangos de Huelva are probably centuries old, but we can safely say the same about cantes abandolaos, assuming that both came from the Moorish prototype of the fandango. I don't think any researchers have stated that one predates the other. The few things that seem clear are that fandangos de Huelva and cantes abandolaos were developed on nearly opposite sides of Andalusia and that the cantes abandolaos (more specifically, regional fandangos in eastern Andalusia) probably gave rise to malagueñas, granaínas and cantes mineros. It's hard to determine exactly how and when the first cantes libres came about, although they say that the first malagueña libre was the style of Enrique El Mellizo (b. 1848). Malagueñas show up in abundance on the earliest flamenco recordings (unlike fandangos de Huelva, although this doesn't necessarily mean anything). Chacón, El Diana and others sing malagueñas more or less libres on their cylinder recordings. Just to specifically address all the issues involved here, I'll say that free-form fandangos have obviously been influenced by fandangos de Huelva but probably in much more recent times and not in origin.



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