RE: PdL too clinical (Full Version)

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Paul Magnussen -> RE: PdL too clinical (Aug. 31 2011 0:53:21)

quote:

And as far as Brit, she IS great-at what she does. That lady has been a professional entertainer almost her entire life, has all kinds of training and experience, incredible instincts for what a large segment of the public wanted, and an ablity to deliver it.


Hmm:

quote:

Take Britney Spears as an example. She cannot sing in key and the recording studio engineer has to make corrections before they release a cut. When Britney sings on stage she lip syncs to one of her edited recordings.


Thomas Whitely, this forum, 01 Feb 2004



Harry -> RE: PdL too clinical (Aug. 31 2011 1:16:26)

Must we discuss Britney and Paco de Lucia in the same thread.

[:'(]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Aug. 31 2011 3:03:19)

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Guest -> [Deleted] (Aug. 31 2011 5:19:09)

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Mark2 -> RE: PdL too clinical (Aug. 31 2011 5:28:50)

I didn't realize that Tom was a friend of the recording engineer(s) who mixed her records. I'm pretty sure auto tune is used on most pop records, and as to lip syncing, I have no idea. It's pretty clear to me that she is not representing herself as a vocalist, but as a pop star. Google her image, and if you think she has no appeal, then that's ok with me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

And as far as Brit, she IS great-at what she does. That lady has been a professional entertainer almost her entire life, has all kinds of training and experience, incredible instincts for what a large segment of the public wanted, and an ablity to deliver it.


Hmm:

quote:

Take Britney Spears as an example. She cannot sing in key and the recording studio engineer has to make corrections before they release a cut. When Britney sings on stage she lip syncs to one of her edited recordings.


Thomas Whitely, this forum, 01 Feb 2004



Derek Woulds -> RE: PdL too clinical (Aug. 31 2011 8:03:44)

I've created a monster, with a life of it's own!



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: PdL too clinical (Aug. 31 2011 10:32:05)

this time, there weren't any serious personal insults, noone got banned and less popcorn was consumed, which is a pleasant surprise!



runner -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 5 2011 13:37:10)

"If you want to understand flamenco, you have no choice but to understand Paco de Lucia. Period." Thus, ToddK.

It's fascinating to what degree the modern understanding of flamenco now revolves almost entirely around guitar, and mostly "solo" guitar at that--guitar that is not accompanying cante. Longtime aficionados (and we are slowly dying out) still remember that the beating heart and soul and reason and center of flamenco is cante. We remember that the guitarist's primary function was to sensitively accompany and support the cantaor/a in his/her search for emotional truth and release in the song. Putting the guitarist center-stage, as appears to be the new truth(?) in flamenco, is like glorifying the role of the pianist accompanying a lieder singer--saying that lieder is really all about piano.

This is not to belittle the accomplishments of PdL, or of any flamenco guitar phenom--Paco was a gifted accompanist--but let's try not to so warp and violate the central notion of flamenco as to make our definition of it unintelligible over time. People of the far future should know that flamenco was about people singing their hearts out, often accompanied by a empathetic guitarist; and not about a man sitting in a chair playing a guitar.

I am a living fossil, and I remember what flamenco was. If you want to understand flamenco, you have no choice but to understand Manuel Torre. Period.



orsonw -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 5 2011 16:54:15)




ToddK -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 5 2011 17:02:44)

I am dating this girl, and she's the most beautiful girl the planet has ever
known. She makes Heidi Klum look like a dog. She is so hot, you can
see smoke coming off of her.

But you wouldnt know her, and i cant tell you her name, sorry.

[8D]



Rmn -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 5 2011 17:07:15)

Hey Orsonw,

This is a great example of the fact that paco de lucia is not playing too systematic and clinical. Here you can see that he is putting a lot of feeling in what he plays. Very inspiring, thanks for the video

Ramon



runner -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 5 2011 21:44:25)

orsonw, thanks for helping me make my case. The man plays a wicked guitar, as the suit-and-tie audience clearly appreciates. Muy flamenco.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Sep. 5 2011 22:20:44)

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XXX -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 6:23:34)

I pity those who think in categories like "truth" and "definition" in arts. To me it seems a sign of insecure tastes if someone tries to overimpose his tastes on someone else.
Im not sure whether flamenco contains more of such people? Maybe for a non negligible amount of people flamenco means escaping the western style of music to find a new severity. THat would explain why so many people cant clap play or dance bulerias in compas and yet have a strong opinion in flamenco, what it is and what its not.



runner -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 13:29:25)

Clearly some people prefer not to define things, but rather prefer to float in a fuzzy, indeterminate world where history or context do not exist and where things can mean whatever they want them to mean. For people such as these, flamenco can be, and is, whatever they wish it to be; its history then is irrelevant, boring, and far too confining.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 13:51:15)

i wish this thread would die already...



Ruphus -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 14:45:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

i wish this thread would die already...


Just a minute! hehe [:D]

I count to the fraction who likes what rocks the house. Be it puro and traditional or blend and unconventional.

But I appreciate the specialists and want them to keep nursing the original and systematic ( if there is a systematic structuring and development ).
Both I think, the pure genre and flamenco-enriched rock / pop / jazz and what have you, have their place and should remain distinguished.

And yep, homegrown guys shouldn´t call themselve flamencos, unless their path was acknowledged by the hard core for a reason. That´s alrighty with me.
-

Deniz,

"Art" without criteria could be named anything; just like say "fart". For if a matter was without any defintion it would bear no term either. No definition, no term. Makes sense?

There do exist merrits in the arts and a misconcepted PC attitude like yours simultaneously devalues achievements of capable artists by equating them to clumsy wannabies and trash makers.
Try to be a bit congruent and appreciative on the valuable matter of art.

Either that or please draw me a Caravaggio-like painting without ever having touched a brush before.

Thanks,

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 16:36:38)

quote:

I am a living fossil, and I remember what flamenco was. If you want to understand flamenco, you have no choice but to understand Manuel Torre. Period.


Your as old as that??? [&o]

Seriously, your point is well taken regarding flamenco in general. I for one made a point to distinguish understanding evolution of FLAMENCO GUITAR as a genre, it is important. In terms of understanding cante, we can actually ignore Paco altogether, focusing more on his brother who wrote some catchy estribillos and cuple letras and such that have become sort of "traditional" in performances now a days. And perhaps guys like Paco or Manolo Sanlucar and Vicente Amigo have also made some small contributions in this manner to the cante, with their own nifty estribillos and such.

But for the most part, this thread was never about CANTE specifically, it was a simple question regarding the recordings of PDL and if they are hype or deserve a careful listen. We can start up a new topic regarding the importance of Cante and the guitar's role. A man playing a guitar in a chair for sure is not the whole picture of flamenco, but can be very flamenco just the same. A greater and more realistic fear is the vision of flamenco in the future, is of a pretty girl with a flower and castanets stomping her feet, as that has been a world view for sometime now.

Ricardo



Harry -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 16:48:12)

quote:

the vision of flamenco in the future, is of a pretty girl with a flower and castanets stomping her feet, as that has been a world view for sometime now.


this is definitely a major concern.



BarkellWH -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 18:03:33)

quote:

A greater and more realistic fear is the vision of flamenco in the future, is of a pretty girl with a flower and castanets stomping her feet, as that has been a world view for sometime now.


In the Western (male) imagination, wasn't the flower usually between her teeth? Seriously, Ricardo, don't you think that Jose Greco's dance group, in the 50s and 60s, had a lot to do with the picture you paint above? There are still many people, (not truly aficionados) who go to a flamenco performance thinking the dance is everything--as you wrote, castanets clicking and feet stomping.
Cheers,

Bill



Paul Magnussen -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 18:07:24)

quote:

the vision of flamenco in the future, is of a pretty girl with a flower and castanets stomping her feet, as that has been a world view for sometime now.




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XXX -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 18:25:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: runner

Clearly some people prefer not to define things, but rather prefer to float in a fuzzy, indeterminate world where history or context do not exist and where things can mean whatever they want them to mean.


For a good reason i referred to "art" and not "the world" when i made my post. I have a mind of a scientist so i know very well what a proper definition is and WHAT IT IS NOT. It is NOT overimposing your tastes, which means in your case the guitarrist having to play "gently" or something. You know very well that in actual PERFORMED flamenco (=those who actually DO it) there is a wide range of styles in accompaniment, let alone the whole field of solo guitar. Instead of accepting that your taste in flamenco is, although a legitimate one, simply just a single one among many others, you rather choose to call things unflamenco as soon as you dont like them. Meanwhile i am the first one who has no problem not being "a flamenco", doesnt mean i cant call you out on such acts. Has also nothing to do with age. Ive met a passionate flamenco aficionado and player who died last year. He was very old and sick, but still had a open heart and mind. FIrst time we met i gave him a copy of Jesus de ROsarios CD and although he was more a Diego del Gastor fan he could enjoy it for the most part and saw the connection to traditional flamenco (something i failed to hear at that time btw). He probably was the only old school lover i have seen who didnt talk complete BS when it comes to solo guitar or modern flamenco.



Ricardo -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 19:36:18)

quote:

Seriously, Ricardo, don't you think that Jose Greco's dance group, in the 50s and 60s, had a lot to do with the picture you paint above?

Well yes that was my point. Miss conceptions of flamenco have been going on since the 1950's. In fact if in the distant future the vision of what flamenco was, becomes Paco sitting in a chair playing his guitar, it would be an improvement (small one but still...) to the current general view of what it's all about.

Similarly, our view of early flamenco starts with this guy Planeta, and a photo of him with guitar, sideburns, and a funny hat....that is all there was to early flamenco? Just this guy? Of course not...
http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/about/historia_del_flamenco/paginas/12.htm

It is funny how to be really "into" flamenco at it's deepest level, it is to care mainly about singers and singing....pushing the role of the guitarist way to the background or worse, ignoring the contribution altogether. Yet, the flamenco guitar genre as a solo instrument somehow has managed to evolve into one of, if not THE, most advanced styles (in terms of form, technique, expression, sophistication, and difficulty in achieving mastery) on the planet. It is shameful how many flamenco aficionados don't appreciate that or take it's implications with pride, as a triumph for the genre as a whole, but would rather take the extra effort to put down one who would choose to play a guitar solo ("solista") on stage.

Ricardo



Harry -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 19:59:34)

This is I think the best post on this thread so far Ricardo. I agree with you completely.



runner -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 6 2011 20:53:28)

I understand the difficulty that a post like mine causes the vast majority of Foro contributors--almost everyone who writes or posts about flamenco is a guitarist or a wannabe guitarist. But, Ricardo, let's get rid of the straw men--nobody (not me, anyway) is pushing the role of the guitarist "way into the background, or worse, ignoring the contribution altogether". And there are very few aficionados (like, none) who don't appreciate fine flamenco guitar or who put down those who choose to play a guitar solo. Let's keep the discussion confined to reality. I suggest quietly that all the naysayers take a little time out and read something about the history of flamenco, and about the way it was practiced and enjoyed for some 150 years, and then report back. It's not "funny" about being into flamenco at its deepest level by caring mainly about singers and singing--it's what flamenco has been primarily concerned with for all those long years. Many wall posters advertising upcoming flamenco events in Spain back then would name the singers and not the guitarists, and often the singers chosen by wealthy señoritos for an evening's juerga would then pick out which guitarist they wanted to accompany them. We can wring our hands over the status of the poor guitarists, but that's often the way it was.

Pretty girls with castanets have been a staple of flamenco album covers since I can remember. Paco Peña and his troupe have pretty girls with castanets; so did José Greco, but Greco also made a fantastic recording with Manolita de Jerez and Rafael Romero that offered some of the best examples of the combined power of cante, toque, and baile. Ditto Sabicas & Co. on the album shown--there's an example of how potent a force Sabicas was as an accompanist, such as to extract never-to-be-duplicated performances from such mediocre cantaores as E. Montoya and D. Alvarado (too bad nobody's heard these LPs).

Deniz, I take you at your word that you have the mind of a scientist. What is your area of expertise?



Ricardo -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 7 2011 1:58:10)

quote:

But, Ricardo, let's get rid of the straw men--nobody (not me, anyway) is pushing the role of the guitarist "way into the background, or worse, ignoring the contribution altogether". And there are very few aficionados (like, none) who don't appreciate fine flamenco guitar or who put down those who choose to play a guitar solo.


But by trying to say their solo guitar music is simply "not flamenco" by your definition, you ARE putting them down in a way...a most insulting way at that. In any case it is still irrelevant to this thread. Instead of just saying in this topic "it's about manuel torre" who paco did not accompany, then say "not to belittle Paco, a fine accompanist", why not simply contribute by pointing out examples of his accompaniment you DO recommend for listening?

Also, it is not so fair to assume your post causes "difficulty" to foro members because we are mostly guitarists or wannabe guitarists....as if none care so much for cante. We have a 19 page thread dedicated to cante accompaniment, which as far as I know, you have not felt compelled to contribute to. I think it is great you have aficion for cante, and older flamenco in general, but why not contribute then in a more positive way? Just saying "read about it" is not contributing much.



Harry -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 7 2011 2:43:27)

Let's get back on track here.

Here is Paco alone on a chair in a strange land. Pretty incredible what one man, a guitar and a chair can do.




Paul Magnussen -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 7 2011 4:14:16)

quote:

We have a 19 page thread dedicated to cante accompaniment


What thread would that be? I can’t seem to find it…



KMMI77 -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 7 2011 4:51:37)

quote:

What thread would that be? I can’t seem to find it…


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=124692&p=1&mpage=1&tmode=1&smode=1



XXX -> RE: PdL too clinical (Sep. 7 2011 7:46:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: runner
Deniz, I take you at your word that you have the mind of a scientist. What is your area of expertise?


If thats everything you have to say, then i will answer your question by saying: knowing the difference between tastes and knowledge, and art and science.



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