Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Full Version)

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ecross -> Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 9 2011 21:24:20)

I got my Juan Martin book in the mail yesterday. I was unaware that the book is full of solos without any technique lessons, but at least I can watch how he does things on the DVD.

For those of you who have seen his books before, what do you think of how he divides material up into "Grades"?



Elie -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 9 2011 21:44:26)

if you mean Juan Martin Solos Flamencos Vol. 1/2 then they are cool books in my opinion full of traditional stuff and the grades are reasonable
the first ones are very easy they get harder gradually .. now i remember he has a cool rumba there i guess



GerryR -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 9 2011 23:07:54)

You should probably get his "El Arte Flamenco De La Guitarra" with the included CD. (Vol I and II have been combined.) to go along with what you bought. These include his guitar methods. Excellent IMO.



NenadK -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 10 2011 0:50:08)

I have both of the Juan Martin books and I would recommend both. The one does have only guitar solos and minimal instruction but the other has plenty of detailed instructions regarding the different techniques, flamenco history, guitarreros etc. There is some overlapping material in terms of music but in general they are quite different and it's definitely worth it to get both. I find that in the volume I/II the material is pretty easy until you get to the fandangos, then it becomes difficult to play arpeggios up to speed (for me at least...).

Cheers

NK



gaash -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 10 2011 1:31:06)

I learned from these books.. I like them a lot. I had played electric guitar before so I was not a total beginner. The grades are not as easy as some make them seem at least in my opinion but there is very little 'crazy' stuff like the really fast picados in Juan Serranos books etc. so most of it should be pretty learnable with practice.



ecross -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 17 2011 21:27:15)

I too come from an electric guitar background so I don't find this stuff easy, yet. Seeing four finger rasgueos in a Grade 0 piece really helped cement that feeling.



mezzo -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 17 2011 22:00:44)

just my 2 cts, don't waste your time in learning the 4 stroke rasgueos. When you see one of these in a piece, replace it with the amii.
I never use the eami rasg!



Elie -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 17 2011 22:23:09)

you said you came from electric guitar background that's mean you're not familiar with flamenco techniques, and I think if you start right away to solos you'll regret that because you might develop bad habits and wrong techniques , why don't you start with something more detailed ? let's say Gerhard Martinez flamenco guitar methods which show you different techniques (not the best method, but you'll get a general idea) or at least search the internet for videos that demonstrate pulgar, arpegios, picados, Alzapua, Rasgueados, Tremelo etc ...
good luck !



gaash -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 0:57:19)

You'll get there and yes, even Level 0 presents some challenges....

Mezzo: Interesting, I like eami and find it much easier than any rasgeaudo ends in ii ....



VietFlamenco -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 1:03:40)

Don't take shortcuts. eami is hard and it took me 9 months of practicing every day before i could do it somewhat competently. Sure you can play amii, but it doesn't sound the same. You should try to master both though. If you practice eamii, it'll be like practicing for both rasgueados.



RTC -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 1:12:58)

Agree with VietFlamenco. I am not musically incline, so the time that is taking me to learn is irrelevant, but my teacher has a lot a patience with me and he stresses two things, Compass and proper technique.

Anyway:

The time that I have spent learning flamenco is the best time I have ever had with my clothes on!



Chilli Fingers -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 2:10:50)

To this day i am still amazed that someone with such bad technique and compas like juan martin has succeeded in capturing the beginner flamenco learning book market? I think it may simply be he was the first to really get it out there on mass, and into countries outside of spain.

Try the manual granados books they are good, i havent really checked out the graf mantinez ones but i think they are also much better than the JM books. I guess there is still some benefit in the JM books just to get some chords and simple falsetas, but dont dwell too long on his technique. Definatly the excercises in the granados books are far superior to any of the offerings in the JM books imo.



gaash -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 2:11:56)

Also, i've found for right hand technique, it is not a gradual learning curve but one with a lot of jumps and plateaus. You will barely be able to do eami and then one day you will 'get it' at least that is how it was for me. Same w/alzapua etc. I would say everything other than picado which was/is more gradual seems to have worked like that for me. I should put in the disclaimer that I am a recreational player so I don't care if things are not perfect as long as they are pretty much good.



HolyEvil -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 6:07:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chilli Fingers

To this day i am still amazed that someone with such bad technique and compas like juan martin has succeeded in capturing the beginner flamenco learning book market? I think it may simply be he was the first to really get it out there on mass, and into countries outside of spain.




i have to disagree here.. Juan Martin might not be the technique wizard or the best musically.. he has very solid compas.

At the super beginner stage.. I think it's more important how you are playing a piece (eg right hand technique) rather than what you are playing..
you can playing exactly the same notes in a short solea but use completely different technique.. if you start learning bad technique in the beginning.. it'll be super hard to break it in the future..

eg of a not so good right hand technique (altho his enthusiasm is very infectious)


vs a good right hand technique



mezzo -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 7:26:21)

quote:

Don't take shortcuts. eami is hard and it took me 9 months of practicing every day before i could do it somewhat competently. Sure you can play amii, but it doesn't sound the same. You should try to master both though. If you practice eamii, it'll be like practicing for both rasgueados.

Yes i agree. If you absolutly want to play eami to get the "specific" sound, then you should do it. But don't believe you absolutly need to achieve it to sound authentic coz it's not true.

For me the story was that when I started learning, I also did it eami (coz of the books and methods). Then 3 months after buying my guitar I went to Jerez and took some class with Carbonero. When he saw me with my wanabee eami pattern, he said to me : NOT like this. I was septikal about it and begin to argue that I saw this in books...He laughs and told me that NO ONE played that way nowodays!
So I dropped this tecnik. And don't feel this lack like an handicap (until now! but maybe i would change my mind [8D])



Munin -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 10:23:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo

quote:

Don't take shortcuts. eami is hard and it took me 9 months of practicing every day before i could do it somewhat competently. Sure you can play amii, but it doesn't sound the same. You should try to master both though. If you practice eamii, it'll be like practicing for both rasgueados.

Yes i agree. If you absolutly want to play eami to get the "specific" sound, then you should do it. But don't believe you absolutly need to achieve it to sound authentic coz it's not true.

For me the story was that when I started learning, I also did it eami (coz of the books and methods). Then 3 months after buying my guitar I went to Jerez and took some class with Carbonero. When he saw me with my wanabee eami pattern, he said to me : NOT like this. I was septikal about it and begin to argue that I saw this in books...He laughs and told me that NO ONE played that way nowodays!
So I dropped this tecnik. And don't feel this lack like an handicap (until now! but maybe i would change my mind [8D])


Funny you should say that because I had never learned eami due to this supposed idea that "nobody plays it anymore" but when I told that to my teacher in Granada he called BS and said it is still important. I mean like most things in flamenco there is no "right" opinion, obviously. But in any way I think it can't hurt to learn it.



mezzo -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 11:27:56)

quote:

I mean like most things in flamenco there is no "right" opinion, obviously.

That's true.
I think someone who learned and use the eami, will never say it's useless. And vice versa [:D]

quote:

But in any way I think it can't hurt to learn it.

well, don't count on me to support this idea [;)]
You can learn it, but it's not mandatory...
However in the books, they don't tell you that you have the choice! It's eami and that's it!
JM not tell you that you can replace eami by amii. He just tell you, play it like me coz it's THE way it sound...that's BS imo!

I don't want to argue about this. Of course all roads lead to Roma. Maybe ecross wasn't aware of that. Now he is and he can make a choice.



gaash -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 12:51:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chilli Fingers

To this day i am still amazed that someone with such bad technique and compas like juan martin has succeeded in capturing the beginner flamenco learning book market? I think it may simply be he was the first to really get it out there on mass, and into countries outside of spain.

Try the manual granados books they are good, i havent really checked out the graf mantinez ones but i think they are also much better than the JM books. I guess there is still some benefit in the JM books just to get some chords and simple falsetas, but dont dwell too long on his technique. Definatly the excercises in the granados books are far superior to any of the offerings in the JM books imo.


(1) The nice thing about the JM solo books is that you have easy stuff to play that actually sounds good from the beginning without spending months learning all sorts of techniques and he plays the techniques well enough in the videos which is what matters, not how he plays in performances.

(2) I personally like the falsetas and overall compositions in the JM stuff and them being short is especially nice as you can learn 'complete' pieces more quickly. Plus, other than lack of fast picado and shorter compositions, I'm not sure why everyone thinks JMs stuff is so much easier and primitive than the other popular books (Paco Pena, Juan serrano etc.). Some is, but some isn't.



VietFlamenco -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 18:15:15)

Personally I think the Juan Martin stuff is a little easier to digest than Juan Serrano's Basic Technique. I just don't see anyone using Serrano's ieami rasgeo
besides him and his students. The Juan Martin guitar method book is awesome if you can supplement it with other books such as the Manuel Granados series. This way you get all the picado and rasgueado exercises from the Granados book and the nice short pieces from Martin.



C. Vega -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 18:30:11)

Juan Martin may not be one of the current golden boy hotshots but he can most likely play rings around any his amateur wannabe internet critics and has more flamenco knowledge in one of his little fingers than most of his detractors have in their collective bodies.



beno -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 19:12:20)

[:D][:D][:D]
...and the never ending-story here starts again...



Elie -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 19:14:10)

quote:

and the never ending-story here starts again

lol



ecross -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 18 2011 19:58:38)

Thanks for the input, I didn't expect this much feedback. When it comes to how good people think Juan Martin is or isn't, he is still far better than me so I will gladly learn from his books. I definitely appreciate the small size of the pieces, it's nice to be able to play flamenco right off the bat, regardless of how short and easy it is. It helps keep a beginner motivated.

As far as eami vs amii is concerned, I don't really know which path I'll take yet.



Dave K -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 19 2011 0:53:34)

C. Vega, Ole!



RTC -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 19 2011 4:11:03)

C. Vega:

Agree



Chilli Fingers -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 19 2011 6:48:34)

quote:

Juan Martin may not be one of the current golden boy hotshots but he can most likely play rings around any his amateur wannabe internet critics and has more flamenco knowledge in one of his little fingers than most of his detractors have in their collective bodies.


Hi C. Vega, im only stating my opinion so like anything you can take it or leave it. You dont really need to take it personally and i do apologise if you got offended. I just wanted to mention other methods worth a look, and i wish they were available when i was looking into these books.

Year ago only the JM method was available more or less(pre internet), this may also explain why his flamenco method was so dominant in the market...it was the only one :) But now people have a choice and can be more pinky... i mean picky.

A lot has happened since he released his method. Its harder to sell something with competition, you have to justify why your method/product is better. This improves market quality, its a natural progression and a good thing imo. Of course no book can be better than having a good teacher.
Peace



gaash -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 19 2011 13:38:18)

The books the guy has aren't the method but the progressively graded solo collection. It's not really instructional, just a bunch of solos to play that start easy and get progressively harder + a DVD of him playing them. Still not a bad learning tool at least in my experience. I know for many of us recreational players practicing technique days on end is much more fun when it's combined with learning a song and applied more readily.



Munin -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 19 2011 14:00:25)

I think the JM stuff is much better than the Graf-Martinez crap. I have heard very good thinks about the Granados books and DVDs.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 19 2011 14:46:03)

I wouldn't say Juan Martin is a great artist[:D] but for beginners I think he still has the best instructional books. He plays great beginner material with perfect technique, compas, and sound IMO. And I think he's great at choosing the right falsetas for every skill level.
I think if you work your way through all of his material you will have an excellent foundation to build on.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Got my Juan Martin book in the mail. (Aug. 19 2011 16:22:48)

quote:

I think the JM stuff is much better than the Graf-Martinez crap.


I don’t consider Graf-Martínez crap at all. The problem is in the title: it should be called Modern Flamenco Guitar Technique. Were that the case, it would do its job very well.

I think there’s some confusion about Juan Martín’s material. His first book was his tutor, which I think is excellent.

http://www.amazon.com/Arte-Flamenco-Guitarra-Juan-Martin/dp/1598060562/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313770234&sr=1-1

The graded music material is something separate.

I also like Juan Grecos’s The Flamenco Guitar, and have taught from it. But it’s out of print now, and the second-hand prices prices are starting to become inflated.

http://www.amazon.com/Flamenco-Guitar-Juan-D-Grecos/dp/B004NRT2PA/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313770409&sr=1-1

I also like Dennis Koster:

http://www.amazon.com/Mel-presents-Keys-Flamenco-Guitar/dp/0786673486/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313770485&sr=1-2



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