British Riots (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> British Riots (Aug. 9 2011 19:15:24)

A while ago (in January) I made this post.

"You know, a couple of weeks ago I was sorta thinking that if the Bankers and Politicians and the Privileged Classes don't stop stuffing money into their pockets while asking the rest of us to pull our belts in tighter to get through this recession....I can see almost French Revolution stuff happening throughout the world....yes..including the USA!
If things don't start picking up soon for the ordinary Joe and his family, I can see these protests gaining momentum as it has done from Tunisia now spilling into Egypt.

"We can't be allowed to fail" (and we are entitled to our bonuses) say the Banks...
"Were all in this together" say the Politicians...

Yeah, exactly....but some in it together more than others methinks....

And Joe's starting to lose faith in all of it."

Sure, the people involved were from the poorer classes, just looters and chancers, who now don't even give anymore about any repercussions or anything, which is a step further than ever seen before here.

This is not noble or political, just more of a loss of faith completely.

I think we are all sensing it, regardless of our savings or income.

I know the USA has a harder Police system than here.

But I think it's probably going to spread even to the land of the free in the coming weeks/months.

I hope we can reverse ourselves from this mess.

cheers,

Ron



marrow3 -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 9 2011 20:19:33)

quote:


I know the USA has a harder Police system than here.

But I think it's probably going to spread even to the land of the free in the coming weeks/months.


with the gun ownership over there...



estebanana -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 9 2011 23:10:40)

Hey Ron, nice to see you on the Foro.

In the US we have two kinds of gun ownership: Normal gun owners and gun owning nut jobs. For years I've been deferring heavy thought on the possibility of mass riots here. Civilians would most likely get killed by other civilians.

Two years ago in the city I live in there were a few days of rioting and some looting in Downtown over the shooting of a man taking mass transit by transit policeman. The looting here had nothing to do with the politics or civic actions like vigil marches that the good organizers put together. It was mainly by angry younger men who just wanted to break things. The regular police force handled it with amazing dexterity by getting enough police to loosely surround main crowd and then cutting off and separating pockets of those who were vandalizing and looting.

The police had super cool nerves and while I don't always like or agree with what they do, I have to say they handled it as best as it could have been handled. They did not exacerbate the situation or react to the hoodlums who were into erroneously thinking they were doing something for society.

What is happening in London reminds me of the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles or the Watts riots of the 1970's. Both riots were to big for the police to contain by separating the worst elements from the main crowd. Eventually the rioters dispersed because even they can't sustain a daily routine of vandalism and looting. I hope the people in London who are doing this are identified in the areas they live in and are caught sooner or later.

I am so happy to hear about the large groups of cool people who have taken to the streets with brooms and bags to clean up the mess and help each other. Those fools who are looting should be caught and put to heavy, heavy punishment through community service for several years. A##holes.



estebanana -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 9 2011 23:20:49)

Broom held high! This is really cool. When I think of the English, I think of this kind of culture. This is what enabled them endure WWII bombings, sticking together.

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/london-s-operation-riot-clean-up--1312924813-slideshow/%0A



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 4:48:25)

Still blaming bankers for these problems? I don’t think class is the issue either. Class in the US is more fluid than in other countries and for most US citizens it is a function of how much money they make. In the US many people who are born into one class end up in another later on in life. Social class in Europe is still a bit more stratified and having a lot of money may not be enough to join certain social organizations, etc.

From what I’ve heard the current riots have a lot to do with the conservative government cutting social programs--including education--and even reducing funding for the police.

The only reason areas of the US haven’t fallen into civil war for the past 50 years is the massive monthly redistribution of wealth to the poor. There are a lot of ineffective people who aren’t capable of providing for themselves. They want more than their labor could ever provide and don’t attempt to understand their part in their lack of success. It’s unfortunate but all of these unproductive people are bankrupting the system along with the politicians who use taxpayer’s money to buy their votes and ensure their own financial well being with costly salaries and retirement packages. This wasn’t an issue in decades past when governments appeared to have surplus money, but it has become more untenable as sovereign debt continues to mount. The system is destroying itself and has been for generations.



KMMI77 -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 5:00:57)

quote:

This is not noble or political, just more of a loss of faith completely.

I think we are all sensing it, regardless of our savings or income.


Hey Ron,

I agree

We all, and especially young people are faced with dealing with an unsustainable system that is rapidly being exposed for its flaws. The internet is giving the previously controlled media and education system a real hard time.

Although i don't condone the behavior displayed in the Uk i am not at all surprised.

Sometimes i think about the future and wonder just how bad it's going to get. I can see that we are all being psychologically profiled as we enter our information onto the internet. The need to control people is increasing.

What will it be like when we are forced to hold devices on our person that track and record every movement? Take a drive from a to b and have computers decide if we went over the speed limit or said something out of place and be issued with our fines. How far will we allow it to go?Fun stuff for young people to think about.

Watching big corporations like Coles and Woolworths in Australia gradually monopolizing and taking over all the food and fuel supplies. Watching housing becoming unaffordable and rents rising. Watching the same big companies moving jobs off shore in a bid to attain even greater wealth. Watching a system that enables other, equally as damaging as looting, criminal and corrupt activities to be hidden away by complex loopholes within laws.

I find it irritating when people refer to these people as "mindless thugs" for example. It seems to underestimate the fact that they clearly do have a mind and the ability of perception. Perhaps to a greater extent than many. But like i said earlier, hurting each other more doesn't make sense.



XXX -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 8:03:18)

werent there riots/protest from students in the past months in England when student fees were astronomically raised? Sometimes i wonder how students abroad manage this, its outrageous.

quote:

They want more than their labor could ever provide


I dont think so, many jobless people do not have astronomic expectations considering their earnings. Besides i would dspute that it is the labour itself that provides the money. It is what the employer is willing to pay, which depends on various factors and just ONE of them being what you are able to offer. Others being profit, competition.

quote:

It’s unfortunate but all of these unproductive people


They arent unproductive per se. Many abilities are put out of work, not because they are unproductive, or not needed, but because they arent profitable enough. Thats NOT the same thing.



KMMI77 -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 9:17:45)

quote:

They want more than their labor could ever provide and don’t attempt to understand their part in their lack of success.


Just as many fail to see the opportunities handed to them on a platter or the real effects and passed on consequences of their own so called "success"



KMMI77 -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 9:35:54)

Anyone know if these guys have been caught yet?




KMMI77 -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 9:38:00)

I wonder what went through this guys mind when he turns around and realized he was filmed?




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:08:09)

quote:

We all, and especially young people are faced with dealing with an unsustainable system that is rapidly being exposed for its flaws. The internet is giving the previously controlled media and education system a real hard time.

Although i don't condone the behavior displayed in the Uk i am not at all surprised.

Sometimes i think about the future and wonder just how bad it's going to get. I can see that we are all being psychologically profiled as we enter our information onto the internet. The need to control people is increasing.

What will it be like when we are forced to hold devices on our person that track and record every movement? Take a drive from a to b and have computers decide if we went over the speed limit or said something out of place and be issued with our fines. How far will we allow it to go?Fun stuff for young people to think about.

Watching big corporations like Coles and Woolworths in Australia gradually monopolizing and taking over all the food and fuel supplies. Watching housing becoming unaffordable and rents rising. Watching the same big companies moving jobs off shore in a bid to attain even greater wealth. Watching a system that enables other, equally as damaging as looting, criminal and corrupt activities to be hidden away by complex loopholes within laws.

I find it irritating when people refer to these people as "mindless thugs" for example. It seems to underestimate the fact that they clearly do have a mind and the ability of perception. Perhaps to a greater extent than many. But like i said earlier, hurting each other more doesn't make sense.


All of these high ideals and for the most part the rioters are reacting to receiving less money and benefits from the government and the fact that this reduced amount of money buys less.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:15:53)

quote:

I dont think so, many jobless people do not have astronomic expectations considering their earnings. Besides i would dspute that it is the labour itself that provides the money. It is what the employer is willing to pay, which depends on various factors and just ONE of them being what you are able to offer. Others being profit, competition.

They arent unproductive per se. Many abilities are put out of work, not because they are unproductive, or not needed, but because they arent profitable enough. Thats NOT the same thing.


Anyone who wants more than they contribute has unrealistic expectations. Not only are many of these people unproductive, they are also inefficient. It's not enough to be an employee anymore. Many people will have to find a way to make it on their own outside of the traditional employer/employee relationship.



XXX -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:26:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
Anyone who wants more than they contribute has unrealistic expectations.


What they contribute is work power. What they get is loan, money. Two different things. You cannot "get more than what you contribute" since its two different things. You can only negotiate with an employer, to find a mutual point, a translation, from one value (work) to the other (money). NEGOTIATION is what determines realistic expectations, there is no objective rule or limit that could divide realistic and non-realistic loans.

quote:

It's not enough to be an employee anymore


depends on how much money you get.

quote:

Many people will have to find a way to make it on their own outside of the traditional employer/employee relationship.


If we are still talking about people who just got fired because their work wasnt "productive" enough as you say (actually its "profitable" what you mean, not "productive", thats not the same thing), then i see it as very questionable such people can become self-employed or build up a business on their own. Reason 1 being no bank would give them credit, reason 2 being most of them dont have the education or means for such kind of undertaking.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:30:10)

quote:

Just as many fail to see the opportunities handed to them on a platter or the real effects and passed on consequences of their own so called "success"


I thought you said they were perceptive: "Perhaps to a greater extent than many." The sooner they stop failing, "to see the opportunities handed to them on a platter," the better... I know you are referring to those who benefit the most from modern society and not the rioters, but it makes sense to me to make resources and opportunities available to those who can make the most of them. So many of these unfortunate ones could never succeed on their own and too often they are given pseudo-jobs in a government agency with a real salary. The government is only in a position to reward ineptitude and incompetence because of the business community--not in spite of it. In any case, ultimately it's the revenue businesses generate--and those who create these businesses--that benefit the people you are defending the most.



Escribano -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:35:57)

quote:

Many people will have to find a way to make it on their own outside of the traditional employer/employee relationship.


Yeah, like me. There will be no state or private pension left for me and I am sick and tired of jumping through pointless corporate HR hoops. From now on, I am on my own and I will make it the best way I can... legally.

I was raised on a council estate, state educated with chav rats like we see on tv this week. That did not make me one of them, quite the opposite.



Escribano -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:40:04)

quote:

In any case, ultimately it's the revenue businesses generate--and those who create these businesses--that benefit the people you are defending the most.


True enough. State benefits do not reward work nor inspire. They repress ambition that would get many out of bed to make their own way.

Sadly, uk welfare spawned millions of non-working families with unemployable off-spring well before this current crisis. It has also taken most of our tax money to get to this intolerable position.

p.s. I have recently landed my first contract of work and will be commissioning two very bright students to assist me.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:41:22)

quote:

You cannot "get more than what you contribute" since its two different things.

If we are still talking about people who just got fired because their work wasnt "productive" enough as you say (actually its "profitable" what you mean, not "productive", thats not the same thing), then i see it as very questionable such people can become self-employed or build up a business on their own. Reason 1 being no bank would give them credit, reason 2 being most of them dont have the education or means for such kind of undertaking.


Many people--even entire communities receive more than they contribute. I never said anyone was fired and wouldn't be surprised if many of the rioters have never had a job. There are ways to generate capital without a loan and education isn't as important as drive when it comes to starting a business. Cf. all of the extremely successful entrepreneurs in the computer world--many never completed an undergraduate degree.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:44:14)

quote:

True enough. State benefits do not reward work nor inspire. They repress ambition that would get many out of bed to make their own way.

Sadly, uk welfare spawned millions of non-working families with unemployable off-spring well before this current crisis. It has also taken most of our tax money to get to this intolerable position.


Absolutely--and well put!



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:48:12)

quote:

Yeah, like me. There will be no state or private pension left for me and I am sick and tired of jumping through pointless corporate HR hoops. From now on, I am on my own and I will make it the best way I can... legally.

I was raised on a council estate, state educated with chav rats like we see on tv this week. That did not make me one of them, quite the opposite.


All of these so-called modern nations would do well to stop punishing success and let the marketplace determine who gets what. It isn't easy out there in the corporate world...



mezzo -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 15:57:42)

quote:

wouldn't be surprised if many of the rioters have never had a job.

Something I don't get very well. Are these chavs almost youngteenager?
Something like an average of 15 years old or less?

So what are you talkin' about!? They even don't the age to go to work!

And they certainly not receive public assistance (maybe their parents can be so).
quote:

or the most part the rioters are reacting to receiving less money and benefits from the government and the fact that this reduced amount of money buys less.

So maybe parents tell to their childs, look we don't have enought money to buy a new tv. Why you don't go outside tonight with your friend to fix this my dear...

For me your speech is just blinded by your ideology!
You should clean up your crystal ball coz it's really dirty man!



val -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 17:52:26)

I'm becoming increasingly dismayed by the the number of "commentators" telling us WHY the behaviours we're witnessing in the UK are happening.

I won't join others in voicing opinions because the issues are so very complex and at the moment I don't have the will, nor capacity to analyse them.

I do feel, however, that throughout the western world, never before in the history of mankind has so much freedom, without adequate sanction, been offered to so many.

Where exactly, is the surprise?
I am reminded of an essay title from one of my final teaching exams, back in the late 60s "There can be no freedom without democracy - discuss"



Ron.M -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 19:28:49)

I'm not saying that I side with these yobos, louts, chavs or whatever you want to call them.

I am merely saying that this is a temperature test of our times.

The post WWII parents wanted to bring their children up in an environment of freedom and discipline.

In the 1950's even divorce was seen as something a bit shameful and to be discussed only in whispers.
Today we have government grants and houses being given to 16 year old single mothers.

Children being raised by children.

The cornerstones of our society, such as the Banks and Insurance companies etc, are no longer our friendly advisors and helpers, but just other organizations out there to exploit us.

Films and computer games of violence and extreme behaviour, as well as increasingly strong TV News and Documentary footage have been the diet of young folk in the past 20 years.

Folk are now living in an atmosphere of general mistrust.

Add to the mix, Politicians like Theresa May, the Home Secretary who can offer no intelligence, insight or gravitas to the situation, but only throwaway television sound bites to cover her own priveleged and Oxford University educated ass.

Bow out with grace and take your fat pension entitlement with you is the name of the game these days as we have seen so many times now.

The Law of the Jungle is looming I fear....

Some people even in third world countries have higher standards of ethics and morality than what I see here.

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 20:25:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
and education isn't as important as drive when it comes to starting a business. Cf. all of the extremely successful entrepreneurs in the computer world--many never completed an undergraduate degree.


Easy bro, I was thinking of basic language, math and eco skills. Those who fail lack these things, not drive IMO. What you present sounds nothing more than the fairy tale "from rags to riches". I would have thought by now, after all the stuff in newspapers or studies, it has been clearly shown that the gap between the rich and poor is increasing, not decreasing. I find that capitalism and all its idelogies and fairy tales about it are getting really boring to falsify, because its too easy. I think if one was to pinpoint the omnipresent rule of capitalism, it would be that property has to grow. And it grows best in the hands of those who already have alot of it. This system works more effectively the more concentrated the capital is, ie when the vast majority has just enough to survive.

Anyway, that said i dont want to imply that these riots are politically motivated.



val -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 21:17:59)

quote:

The Law of the Jungle is looming I fear....

Lord of the Flies strike a chord?



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 22:30:36)

quote:

Something I don't get very well. Are these chavs almost youngteenager?
Something like an average of 15 years old or less?

So what are you talkin' about!? They even don't the age to go to work!


Adults were the prime movers of this riot. The 15 year old boys are there because vandalism is a sport for them at that age.

So what do you think my ideology is? Years ago I thought these programs could bring about positive and much needed societal change. We've had 50 years of progressive social programs and countries are worse off than before. This is in part because of the debt these programs have generated.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 22:50:09)

quote:

...I was thinking of basic language, math and eco skills. Those who fail lack these things, not drive IMO.


Everyone has access to basic education in the US, but people still have to apply themselves. I'm not talking exclusively about business--people have to be resourceful enough to maintain a household and too many can't.



mezzo -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 10 2011 22:58:28)

quote:

Adults were the prime movers of this riot

ah ok! So you consider that the members of the peaceful protest over the police blunder were the brain of all that mess.
Do you think they kinda planified it ?

quote:

We've had 50 years of progressive social programs and countries are worse off than before.

ah ok. 50 years wow that's a lot!
I'd add we have 30 years of Reagan/Tatcher's ultraliberal program, deregulation...and look at the result! What a wonderful world.
We can celebrate and glorify the Invisible Hand.



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 11 2011 4:04:42)

Here's a table of unemployment rate in OECD countries.

Pgh, I hear what you're saying. Don't blame the programs though... it's not the programs that are faulty, it's the way they're administrated.

I met some professional who studies workforce systems in an airplane a few years ago. He's explained that the administration of the health care in my province became a pyramidal system. Basically, administrators employed "assistants" who employed "assistants who employed "assistants", etc. Now we're stuck with more administrators than health care providers. I don't recall the numbers but I think it's around 1.6 administrator for one provider. It's totally insane.

And they manage to get yearly bonuses because well... they are the ones deciding. It takes years after a PET scan machine has been bought to install it because of the bureaucratic monster the system generated. And we can't fire them because of the collective agreements they get because the government is ready to accept anything to avoid a political suicide of having strikes in hospitals.

Is public healthcare the culprit? No... it's the idiots administrating it who chose the path of facility and the politicians who can't think further than the next elections.



NenadK -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 11 2011 4:18:49)

quote:

What you present sounds nothing more than the fairy tale "from rags to riches". I would have thought by now, after all the stuff in newspapers or studies, it has been clearly shown that the gap between the rich and poor is increasing, not decreasing. I find that capitalism and all its idelogies and fairy tales about it are getting really boring to falsify, because its too easy. I think if one was to pinpoint the omnipresent rule of capitalism, it would be that property has to grow. And it grows best in the hands of those who already have alot of it. This system works more effectively the more concentrated the capital is, ie when the vast majority has just enough to survive.

Anyway, that said i dont want to imply that these riots are politically motivated.


Dead on. Using people that "made it" without an education is quite absurd. It implies that education is not an advantage. If this is so why do any of us bother? And if it is an advantage then conversely those that do not have it (because of saaayy...cuts to education) must be at a disadvantage and also a lot more likely to "fail" at their endeavours and turn to crime.

As for the whole private vs public issue, having worked in both sectors I can definitely see the appeal of both. Even though I wholeheartedly support funding public programs, at this point in my life I feel that the private sectors appeals to me as well for reasons previously mentioned in the thread; If you are ambitious, young and can afford to take risks looking for the perfect job/riches I think the private sector is great. However, most people end up working for s***tty private firms that exploit their workers and often the management is shameless about it because that's all anyone expects of private businesses. I don't think that private companies are the devil but I think people need to understand that just because there isn't a market for something doesn't mean that it has no place in society.

If I had to sum up my views on this issue (or anything for that matter) it would be that every ideology is doomed to fail; This includes Capitalism, Communism, Theocracies etc. Every single one is a product of a person's imagination and I think its success is dependent only on the proportion of people that believe in it. Capitalists claim that Capitalism "works" because people are selfish by nature? Not everyone is and not everyone shares that view. Communists claim that we are all in this together? Sometimes you have to look out for yourself first.

As for the riots, I'm all for looking for the root of the problem instead of the obvious symptoms. I sometimes support civil unrest for the sake of achieving political change. While I do think that having better social programs and access to education may have prevented these people from growing up to be the thugs that they are, I still ultimately judge the individual by his/her own actions. While the individuals are IMO responsible for everything they've done, this does not mean that we should not push our governments to make changes which will allow future generations to be more educated and voice their grievances in a more constructive manner. [:D]



Cheers

N



XXX -> RE: British Riots (Aug. 11 2011 7:58:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
Everyone has access to basic education in the US, but people still have to apply themselves. I'm not talking exclusively about business--people have to be resourceful enough to maintain a household and too many can't.


Dont know in the US, but in Germany, i would be surprised if more than 50% of the business starters received education in how to set up a business plan. I agree about people not being able to maintain a hosehold, but i would definitely argue that the number is not that much that it would be systematically relevant in capitalism. In fact, most low-income people have to calculate precisely to even be *able* to maintain their household, more so than upper low and middle class people, who have some extra hundreds or thousands every month to spend, after food and rent is paid.



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