Thumb/Wrist movement question (Full Version)

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MarTay6 -> Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 26 2011 20:39:42)

O.K., the newbie here, starting to work with the Oscar Herrero DVD... thumb technique.
He discusses the importance of not playing the thumb with thumb movement, rather with rotation of the wrist- playing rest strokes on each string.
Due to prior sloppy technique as a steel string fingerstyle player, my thumb seems to be very active- and wants to play the notes independant of my hand, and wants to not hit the next string in appropriate rest stroke style. About the only way I can play by wrist rotation is to hold something in my hand to lock up my thumb!!
Then I was looking at a video of a guy playing, and he seemed to be playing with more thumb movement than wrist rotational movement...
Can someone shed any light on this issue??? I want to get it right.... and I'm certain I have a lot of steel string habits to un-learn.
Thanks in advance!
Wes



ecross -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 26 2011 23:36:16)

I am interested to hear what people have to say about this too.



Yojimbo -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 2:45:28)

Try this.




rombsix -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 6:29:56)

quote:

Then I was looking at a video of a guy playing, and he seemed to be playing with more thumb movement than wrist rotational movement...
Can someone shed any light on this issue??? I want to get it right.... and I'm certain I have a lot of steel string habits to un-learn.


Being an Oscar Herrero Paso a Paso follower, I am an advocate of the use of the wrist plus thumb, rather than the thumb per se. It feels more natural to me that way, and I've seen many flamencos do it as such. However, some other gitanos prefer to use mostly the thumb, and little movement from the wrist.

Check out deteresa1 (Andy Culpepper) over here - a member/luthier/guitarist. I think he gets a very good thumb sound even though most of his movement comes from the thumb per se, and not the wrist.

As long as you get the sound, I don't think it's a huge issue whether you use the wrist much or not.

Cheers!




Elie -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 9:19:19)

I believe that rotating the wrist should assist the thumb movement not the opposite ... I mean the major movement should be coming from the thumb and then rotating the writst will be only assisting that move.
I don't think you can gain good speed for alzapua for example by only using the wrist .. that would be like playing with a guitar pick
on the other hand you should rotate your wrist even if the move is small and not noticeable because that will really help.



machopicasso -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 9:30:33)

quote:

He discusses the importance of not playing the thumb with thumb movement, rather with rotation of the wrist-


If you're talking about Alzapua technique, then you can rotate either with the wrist or with the thumb. Ricardo Marlow has a nice lesson on this here: http://www.flamenco-teacher.com/lps?lpv=1026

For my part, I kind of use both techniques. My preference is to rotate with the wrist. However, I developed this habit of doing a golpe with the "a" finger whenever I do alzapua. Until I break that habit (if I do!), I've started doing alzapua with the thumb and resting the "a" finger on the high e string for stability.



MarTay6 -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 11:22:54)

Hmmm... lots of good responses here, and what I get out of it, is no one way is "right". However, I think the goal should remain wrist movement. In the first video, the thumb is being used more as a pick held by the hand; in the 2nd video, more as one member of the 5 fingers of the hand, each with a contribution to make. I must say, I much prefer (let me say I LOVE!) the tone deteresa1 (Andy Culpepper) has going for him!! WOW.... I'm sure a combination of technique and the instrument itself. If I were to choose a tone to be able to duplicate, it'd be Andy's! I don't think my Yamaha will ever sound like that! [:o]
Machopicasso- the link you listed is a pay subscription site... I haven't joined that yet... is the video/that particular lesson worth the $10.00 to see??
Thanks for the input, guys- I really appreciate it. I realize the importance of the proper foundation. It's been long enough since I played steel string that I feel like I'm learning from a beginners place, and if I try to go back to the steel string songs, they feel foreign... so maybe there's hope!
Wes



rombsix -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 12:42:23)

quote:

Hmmm... lots of good responses here, and what I get out of it, is no one way is "right". However, I think the goal should remain wrist movement. In the first video, the thumb is being used more as a pick held by the hand; in the 2nd video, more as one member of the 5 fingers of the hand, each with a contribution to make. I must say, I much prefer (let me say I LOVE!) the tone deteresa1 (Andy Culpepper) has going for him!! WOW.... I'm sure a combination of technique and the instrument itself. If I were to choose a tone to be able to duplicate, it'd be Andy's! I don't think my Yamaha will ever sound like that!
Machopicasso- the link you listed is a pay subscription site... I haven't joined that yet... is the video/that particular lesson worth the $10.00 to see??
Thanks for the input, guys- I really appreciate it. I realize the importance of the proper foundation. It's been long enough since I played steel string that I feel like I'm learning from a beginners place, and if I try to go back to the steel string songs, they feel foreign... so maybe there's hope!
Wes


Surely, there is never going to be one "right" way of doing things (weird coming from me, eh? [8D]). You will always find differences in points of view. You have to do what suits YOU the most, in terms of comfort/ergonomics, and sound.

I don't think the CG171SF will sound like that Culpepper, but don't let that hold you back. I've played a $80 classical guitar for the past 10 years, and also started using a $600 classical guitar about 7 years ago. Just about a year ago did I let go nearly 99% of the $80 dollar one, and stuck to the $600 one. My sound is very acceptable as do many of the members here vouch.

Usually anything from Ricardo Marlow is going to be high quality - you get 16 videos if I read correctly for the $10 you pay, explaining usage in different palos of alzapua, and explaining the technique per se. I've NOT bought the lesson, but knowing what Ricardo usually produces, I'd say it's quite cheap.

Olé!



MarTay6 -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 13:08:44)

Ramzi-
Thanks for your comments! I know it's not the guitar- it's the guitarist! Everyone has their own sound, and I spent years (on steelstring) trying to sound like my favorite players... never did achieve that success! Your Hohner HC-06 sounded really good in the thread where a guy was inquiring about cheap guitars... you have a really good sound on it! In fact, in my humble, untrained (flamenco) ear, the Honer sounds better than the clip of the Ramirez right below it!
Wes



Don Dionisio -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 15:48:14)

Wes,
I have bought several lessons on flamenco-teacher. I would seriously consider doing 'Skype' lessons with Ricardo Marlow. He is a very good performer/teacher and could help you with your thumb concerns. To me, flamenco and classical guitar are very difficult to learn on your own. With today's technology, it is possible to study this way-I do and it is working very well.
www.ricardomarlow.com



Munin -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 16:33:04)

When I was in Granada almost every guitarist I saw or met played 90% from the thumb and not the wrist and advocated it too. I think bursche once mentioned that too. Which is bizarre because in all the English-language learning material the opposite is recommended.



MarTay6 -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 17:15:38)

That is bizarre!



Don Dionisio -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 17:32:16)

As I understand it, many of the 'Canorroto school' players (and perhaps others too) advocate thumb techniques without engaging the wrist, except of course for alzapua.
Regardless, it seems more important to me that if you study with someone you learn good technical skills that will work for your body-type as well as your long-term health (i.e., preventing elbow and/or back injury). I advocate studying with someone with whom you can learn a particular system of playing and trouble-shoot together when you encounter a problem. It's difficult to correct problems when you are getting too many differing opinions.
Good luck with your flamenco journey...



MarTay6 -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 18:52:40)

Thanks, Don.... Ahhh, to be young again- and have a father force lessons on me for something I wanted to learn- instead of piano. Know how many 6-7 yr olds want to learn classical piano??? That was a loooooOooOoong time ago, though! [:-]
Wes



Pimientito -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 19:01:58)

The other factor is is the loosenes of your ligaments. That is to say that some players have a thumb that sticks backwards (like vicente amigo) and others have a more or less straight thumb. Its impossible to copy Vicentes technique if you dont have a hand that moves that way. Vicente has to move more from the wrist in alzapua to get the angle of the nail on the string
Check out from around 6:00


Moraito also has one of those backward facing thumbs too and quite a long nail.
you can see he uses quite a lot of wrist movement too aroun4:18



Gerardo nuñez however has much less "spider hands" and plays less from the wrist
see falseta around 1:48


You have to experiment a little , there is no ONE TRUE way to get the technique to work. You should try prof diaz -paco technique, Gerardos thumb techniques from his Encuentro DVD or Moraitos and see which works best for you.



Ricardo -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 27 2011 20:31:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yojimbo

Try this.




Please I beg you, no Ruben Diaz uploads![&:][:@][>:]

The plain truth is becareful when teachers say " you must do this way" as if it is a generalization. The fact is the thumb is used a lot of different ways in flamenco, the SPECIFIC passage will dictate which is the best. There are times only the thumb moves. There are times the thumb will be straight, bent forwardish, or bent backwardish. There will be times a combo of thumb move with wrist movement is needed. Alzapua is usually done with wrist, yet the thumb moves a bit to "follow through". Still some players make do with alzapua only moving thumb (see riqueni buleria in encuentro).

And finally, there will be times the thumb and wrist are both stiff and the whole arm has to move to play a single note rapidly in succession (see tomatito buleria falseta).

The reason for so much variation has to do with sound, rhythm, and often the angle of attack being used. Unlike the fingers, we need to vary the thumb angle of attack, again because of the specific passage, hand postion, the speed, and tone we are trying to achieve.

Nuñez DVD the first hour is all dedicated to the thumb. Even though he states "move from the wrist" you can clearly see him demo all the above uses of the thumb I described, depending on the specific application.

Ricardo



avimuno -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 28 2011 9:29:09)

quote:

The plain truth is becareful when teachers say " you must do this way" as if it is a generalization. The fact is the thumb is used a lot of different ways in flamenco, the SPECIFIC passage will dictate which is the best. There are times only the thumb moves. There are times the thumb will be straight, bent forwardish, or bent backwardish. There will be times a combo of thumb move with wrist movement is needed.


I find this to be very true! There are so many factors that dictate technique and the physiognomy of your hand is one of them... an excellent example is the comparison between Vicente's pulgar/alzapua technique and Gerardo Nunez's, different, because they have different hands which determine their own technique.

As a student, I am finding out more and more that what Ricardo just said is very very true... a good teacher is an excellent guide, but nothing is really set in stone when it comes to technique... there are guidelines... the rest is indeed dictated by specific passages and your own approach and technique.

That said, to come back to the question at hand, because I have big hands, I tend to use a mix of both thumb and wrist movement... it's both easier and introducing some thumb movement to the wrist movement allows me to limit the movements of my hand so that I can try to keep a better position.



Ruphus -> RE: Thumb/Wrist movement question (Jul. 28 2011 12:10:48)

In about all arts the essential is minimizing, / omitting detours of execution.
In sight of physical execution the minimizing not only concerns movement, but reduction to the possible minimum of muscular / neuronal engagement.

Economy and aptness means delegation to upper / bigger limbs to the extent generally / individually possible.

From there, what can be taken by the wrist / lower arm instead of the thumbs apparatus, better be engaged, the more as the active thumbs apparatus interferes into the independency / movability of the fingers.

Economically, neural / muscular engagement of fine / outer extremities should be kept at practical minimum.

Gerado Nunez has good reason for suggesting so, and your finding him occasionally differing from his own suggestion in performance, will not mean contradiction to his understanding.

What lacks in the guitarist community anyway, is the realisation that refined didactics and performance of highly skilled performers will not constantly match, for at last insight and practice of an individual will hardly ever be completely the same.
Impressive performance will not inevitably equal optimal technique in the same time.
-

No matter one´s individual handicaps like crooked nails etc.: With the basic premisse of least physical / neuronal effort one should be on the right path.

And an outer limb like the thumb in high motion should not meet economical premisse.

I recommend watching flying birds wings for an example of economical movement.

Ruphus



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