How to approach theory? (Full Version)

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DoctorX2k2 -> How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 4:34:58)

Hello,

I'm pushing myself to learn music theory and I have an idea of *what* I'm supposed to do, but none of *how* to achieve the tasks in the most efficient way.

Here's my outline :

-Fretboard notes
-Intervals
-Major Scale Patterns
-Minor Scale Patterns
-Chord Patterns
-Modes
-Chords Progressions
-Rythm

Am I missing anything?

And now the questions... [:D]

Do I learn Intervals/Scales/Chords by memorizing every notes or do I memorize Shapes? I mean, do I memorize that the 5th of D is A or that an A major triad is formed with EAC# or is that completely useless?

I tried to memorize the fretboard notes using the C major scale and reciting the notes as I was playing them, but I find that I can only figure out the next note quickly because of the current note being played. For example, If I play a C on the 3rd fret 5th string, I know that the 5th fret is going to be D, but if one asked me what note is on the 6th fret of 2nd string, it would take me at least 8 seconds to figure it out. Is there an easy and efficient way to master the fretboard?

I also started using the 5 (CAGED) patterns to play the scales... but how am I supposed to practice them? Just doing picados up and down the fretboard? Do I need to practice in all the keys ad eternam until they're imprinted in my brain?

And modes... how do I approach them? To me, they seem to be only scales with different roots giving different tonalities. The diatonic chords are the same, but is the progression different? How do you distinguish C major and E Phrygian scale in a falseta? The note we start on? The note we finish on? I'm clueless about modes.

As you can see, I'm really a newbie and I'd like to be able to understand what I'm playing and compose falsetas but I'm a bit overwhelmed by all this theory considering I have little spare time. I'd like to maximize my time to learn all this and I'm looking for pointers/tips from anybody.

Thank you!



rombsix -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 5:04:04)

When you've figured it all out, let me know. [8D] I share your interest.



Guest -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 6:40:51)

Hiya...just a few thoughts..

quote:

EAC# or is that completely useless?

no....better in some ways when communicating to other musicians also with composition and improvisation.. also helps when adding extensions and alterations to the basic triad
quote:

Is there an easy and efficient way to master the fretboard?

think of 6 tiny piano's on top of each other? each string is chromatic...should'nt be that difficult.
quote:

also started using the 5 (CAGED) patterns to play the scales... but how am I supposed to practice them? Just doing picados up and down the fretboard? Do I need to practice in all the keys ad eternam until they're imprinted in my brain?

melodic sequences..ie 1 2 34 / 2345 /3456/ 4567 etc in semi quavers ascending and descending...then use triplets ie 123/ 234/345
intervallically
triadically...ie arpeggios..
numbers mean scale degrees.
helpful to 'know all keys, their chords and inversions, depending how much time you have...
quote:

And modes... how do I approach them? To me, they seem to be only scales with different roots giving different tonalities. The diatonic chords are the same, but is the progression different? How do you distinguish C major and E Phrygian scale in a falseta? The note we start on? The note we finish on? I'm clueless about modes.

isolate the mode and connect it to a 'tonic chord' or progression Ephyrgian 'Sounds' different than c major...
ie E Phrygian [diatonic] = E minor chord going to any other chord in c major
E Phrygian Dominant [rel to A Harm minor 5th mode] = E7 b9 [por arriba] going to any other chord rel to A harm minor

quote:

Am I missing anything?

melodic sequence...articulations ie ligado's [pull offs]
arpeggios...
Diminished scales
whole tone scale

'the advancing guitarist' by mick goodrick is a great book...
he suggests learning across the fretboard as well as playing up and down a string...among a million other things to think about[:D]

these are just a few thoughts...sure others will contribute and add...



chester -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 7:16:57)

Short answer:
.
.
.
yes.

Ole AlVal!



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 7:40:06)

Lol Thanks AlVal, although you completely lost me with the modes explanation [:D]



machopicasso -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 10:04:31)

quote:

I'd like to be able to understand what I'm playing and compose falsetas


Music theory's great and is a useful way of comprehending what's going-on in a piece of music, in general. However, if you're short on time and want to "compose falsetas", then I'd recommend learning some of the falsetas of the flamenco guitarists you most admire.



XXX -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 10:51:25)

You dont want to memorize every interval of every note. Bit exaggerating here but to compare it, that would be like memorizing every number from 0 to 1000, instead of *knowing* that you can get to any number by just iterating +1 starting from 0*. I say learn what makes each interval special, play it on the guitar to get a feel. Everything regarding theory is build on intervals. It even helps to tune your guitar if you know how a fourth is supposed to sound.

Scales you can leave out IMO. Flamenco compositions dont rely on scales that much. They are more build around chords and of course the andalucian cadence, which derives from the phrygian scale. Remember this: 90% of all compositions are build around the phrygian scale, so all the other scales are merely optional IMO. (except minor and major which are just basic and a "must have")

*) thats actually a very dumb way. You can memorize it by knowing that every number consists of max 4 digits from 0-9, sorted by the value of the highest digit.



Guest -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 11:42:25)

quote:

recommend learning some of the falsetas of the flamenco guitarists you most admire.

yep. that bypasses alot of your questions and good if this is want you want to do.
quote:

Scales you can leave out IMO. Flamenco compositions dont rely on scales that much. They are more build around chords and of course the andalucian cadence, which derives from the phrygian scale. Remember this: 90% of all compositions are build around the phrygian scale, so all the other scales are merely optional IMO. (except minor and major which are just basic and a "must have")

this bypasses alot of 'unused' modes unless you look at a fusion or jazz style.
i probably rambled on and Deniz put it simply.

my point is i guess is each mode is a 'scale' unto itself which has a tonic chord.
but how much of this will you use?
it is a good way of discovering the fretboard. a means to an end.
also good 'Aural' training which will probably help transcribe falseta's etc

but yeah..life is short...depends how much time you can put into it...sounds like there's a plan there.
my experience
sent to classical guitar lessons at 8...we sat there and read music for the 30 mins
later studied a dual degree jazz/classical to honours year
turning 50 this year and still at it
i can sight read and improvise over any chord progression
it's helped
but i aint a great flamenco player
to me the music is hard to capture in those terms.

let me know if you want me to upload video of anything in my earlier post[:)]



Ricardo -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 21:34:57)

quote:

Here's my outline :

-Fretboard notes
-Intervals
-Major Scale Patterns
-Minor Scale Patterns
-Chord Patterns
-Modes
-Chords Progressions
-Rythm

Am I missing anything?


Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm

oh, and the circle of 5ths.



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 23 2011 23:06:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm

oh, and the circle of 5ths.


Any suggestion as of how to work on/improve rhythm?

I've seen the circle of fifth, although I'm not quite sure how to use it in actual play.



GerryR -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 24 2011 0:27:38)

If you would like a simple course in music theory and some good videos showing applications, go to this site:

http://www.guitarlessons365.com/lessons-archive/

I started in the Music Theory Lessons Archive and then went to the Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced and downloaded the .pdf files. Even though the site is Rock oriented, the theory works anywhere and he really makes it simple. It has allowed me to "connect-the-dots" which I have been unable to do for many years, even after a few years of Classical lessons. Maybe I'm just slower than the average bear, but this cleared up a lot of theory for me. No affiliation with this site other than I learn as much as I can from it. Maybe it will help others.



gaash -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 30 2011 2:04:53)

A lot of good advice here though maybe I'm just dumb but I don't see a huge benefit in spending a lot of time on scales in different keys or modes from a playability point of view. If you learn say C-major up and down the fretboard, you will likely be limited by your picado speed before you are limited by your left hand ability to start and stop on different notes (i.e. modes) or shift patterns you know to start on different frets (i.e. diferent keys).



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 30 2011 4:41:29)

It's just that I'm trying to understand what I am playing.

For instance, I'm currently working on an E major Alegrias falseta where there's a switch from E major scale to F harmonic minor... And I have no idea why this can happen.

I don't understand chord progression and composition outlines and I'd like to be able to play my own falsetas one day and improvise...


Ricardo, any tips on improving Rhythm? When I listen to CDs, I don't know what I'm supposed to listen to exactly and I feel completely incompetent.



avimuno -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 30 2011 9:55:41)

quote:

Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
Rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm
rhythm


Ricardo... what would be your advice for rhythm for someone who lives in a places with no access to dancers?
I usually practice to the Solo Compas CDs but it very quickly becomes boring and repetitive because it lacks the interaction of accompanying a real dancer. Metronomes are even worse... except maybe the Oscar Herrerro one which I hear good things about and am thinking of getting.

Also... this might not be directly related to DoctorX2k2's question but I would like to wholeheartedly recommend a little gem I picked up when I was in England and that has helped me a lot in understand theory/chord construction/chord progression/scales and visualizing the fretboard in general... David Mead's 'Chords and Scales for Guitar'.

http://www.amazon.com/Chords-Scales-Guitarists-David-Mead/dp/186074432X/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1312018971&sr=1-4

Like a lot of people here, I am mostly self taught in guitar playing... I picked up a guitar about 17 years ago and I am yet to put it down. Most of those years have been dedicated to blues/rock'n'roll, although I did get a bit into jazz and fusion before discovering flamenco. I have never learned to read music, although I'm pretty good with sight reading tabs. Music theory has always been a bit of a nightmare for me because musically-trained people (in the sense of formal training) always through so much things at you... which do not make sense.
This is most probably due to me being self taught... but I have always tried to visualize things on the guitar... learning shapes and learning to see the music on the fretboard as well as hearing it has become a habit... throughout my years of playing, a connection has been established between my ears and my eyes/fingers... to the point where, although not being an expert by any means, I can 'see' where things are being played on the guitar by hearing them... I know that many guitarists are like that and if it's your case, going into theory might not make a lot of sense... our form of knowledge is different, it's much more empirical and phenomenological than pure theory.
As such, you need something that will take into account the fact that you might know your fretboard very well, but not pure theory, whilst still introducing theory to you... and making it so that theory and your current knowledge complement each other rather than make things harder to get.

This is where this little book shines! David Mead makes things very simple... he is a gifted educator and he explains how theory works, rather than just throw things like a thousand chord shapes/scales at you. He explains the CAGED system of visualizing the fretboard (as elaborated by Joe Pass) and through the different chapters of the very well written book, he takes you step by step through the theory of chord construction and relation to scale that is at the heart of Western music theory.

I have spent a lot of money on books that were supposed to show me all the chords and all the scales... which ended up gathering dust on my bookshelf, or being used as door stoppers... but this book is very precious to me because it makes sense and it has been an invaluable resource to me.

I have also learned amazing things about Bill Edward's 'Fretboard Logic' series although I have not read them myself.



avimuno -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 30 2011 9:58:36)

quote:

It's just that I'm trying to understand what I am playing.

For instance, I'm currently working on an E major Alegrias falseta where there's a switch from E major scale to F harmonic minor... And I have no idea why this can happen.

I don't understand chord progression and composition outlines and I'd like to be able to play my own falsetas one day and improvise...


Listen to as much cante as you can... try to pick up on the different chord progressions used by different guitarists to accompany different singers in different palos... once you have a few of those down, you can start composing simple falsetas based on those chord progressions... with time, practice and dedication, those falsetas will become more and more complex and cool! Easier said then done of course [:)]

The golden rule is always this... listen to cante, it's all there!!



Ricardo -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 30 2011 15:33:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DoctorX2k2

It's just that I'm trying to understand what I am playing.

For instance, I'm currently working on an E major Alegrias falseta where there's a switch from E major scale to F harmonic minor... And I have no idea why this can happen.

I don't understand chord progression and composition outlines and I'd like to be able to play my own falsetas one day and improvise...


Ricardo, any tips on improving Rhythm? When I listen to CDs, I don't know what I'm supposed to listen to exactly and I feel completely incompetent.


Well not sure that is exactly what happened as you say, without the SPECIFIC example, but truth is it doesn't matter. You can play completely a-tonal and chromatic in Alegria, so long as you have COMPAS and know how to resolve back to home key. In that sense what was the point of harmonic or modal analysis? And again flamencos DONT KNOW THEORY, so why do YOU need to know it so bad? Just pick up on it little by little as you learn. Simply put, WHY a scale or chord work relative to what ever key you want, is all laid out by understanding the CIRCLE OF FITHS.

Regarding rhythm, just use a metronome, just a click and develop a sense of tempo, and learn how to subdivide and feel the groove when you play any note or leave a space. No need for loops and busy percussive compas CD's or fancy potty training metronomes with helpful accents. Until a simple tick metronome is NOT boring to practice with, then you are not really good at rhythm yet. You have to get to a point with your control of rhythm and feel, that it seem the tick is following you. Same would go for a palmero if one is in the room with you, it should be like a simple percussion following your groove. But why waste a good palmero or percussionist, or dancer's time if you can't play something interesting to a simple click????? You will know your compas is good when you can groove to a metronome for hours non stop and keep your playing fresh.

Ricardo



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 30 2011 18:22:07)

Ok thanks Ricardo. I'll look into the circle of fifths and attempt to understand how it works. I always practice with a simple metronome (well 90% of the time)... so I guess the control will show itself someday. Would you consider doing palmas a good thing?



DoctorX2k2 -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 30 2011 18:23:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: avimuno


Listen to as much cante as you can... try to pick up on the different chord progressions used by different guitarists to accompany different singers in different palos... once you have a few of those down, you can start composing simple falsetas based on those chord progressions... with time, practice and dedication, those falsetas will become more and more complex and cool! Easier said then done of course [:)]

The golden rule is always this... listen to cante, it's all there!!



I'd need to be able to recognize chords by ear... I'm nowhere near to achieve that lol.



avimuno -> RE: How to approach theory? (Jul. 31 2011 8:43:52)

quote:

I'd need to be able to recognize chords by ear... I'm nowhere near to achieve that lol.


It's not as unattainable as it sounds... get yourself something that can slow down the track you wish to transcribe and get ready to spend some time with your guitar.

The trick to figuring out chords is to identify the root note... once you have that you basically have three options, the chord will be either a major, a minor or a dominant 7/altered chord. Everything else is down to how the guitarist voices the chords.

So knowing that, you need to identify the root and the 3rd, which determine whether the chord is a major or a minor... the rest follows.

It might be difficult at first, especially since flamencos tend to use very wonderfully weird sounding chords, but it's a great way to train your ears and get to know your fretboard.

Definitely start with traditional cante... and a palos which chord progression's is not too hard to figure out... Tangos, Solea and Bulerias pop to mind... but also old-school Alegrias.
Ricardo is right in saying that Alegrias tend to go anywhere harmonically as long as they resolve in the tone... which makes them difficult to transcribe.
So, as I said, stick to simple tangos, solea and bulerias, or traditional/simple alegrias to start.

It is also important for you to develop a repertoire of chord progressions to cante libre (granaina, taranta, rondena and minera mostly)... my advice would be to do the same... learn a few falsetas, or a piece, and put a cante track through a slowdowner and figure out the chord progressions using the same method as above and the falsetas or piece that you have learned. Here again, start with a traditional piece.

Little by little you'll see that granainas, taranta and minera are all the same in terms of chords shapes and progressions (I know... risky claim... please do not shoot me! :-P) and that once you know one, you know them all because they are played at different places on the fretboard... for example the Taranta tone (that E chord on the second fret) is the same as the Granaina's tone, except that the Granaina's tone is played on the 8th fret... which means that everything is moved up 6 frets... from there it's a question of knowing your fretboard and learning as many chord progressions (here again, from listening to cante) and chords shapes as you can.

The golden rule here again... listen to cante and do not overlook the old masters!

Someone in Spain told me something I am finding to be very true... there is so many amazing new material that guitar students today tend to overlook the old school and fast-track in learning only the new guys.
If you wish to really learn flamenco, you have to go back to Sabicas, Nino Ricardo and Diego Del Gastor to name only those 3... this is where Paco, Manolo, Gerardo and Tomatito have learned in order to become who they are, and these old guys represent the 'canons' of flamenco guitar... so do your homework.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Aug. 10 2011 3:15:56)

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britguy -> RE: How to approach theory? (Aug. 11 2011 21:58:08)

quote:

I'm currently working on an E major Alegrias falseta where there's a switch from E major scale to F harmonic minor... And I have no idea why this can happen.


'Allo mon vieux. Je suis tres interesse de savoir este falseta de Alegrias?
(Sorry, no French accents on my keyboard).

Can you tell me more about this falseta you are playing that moves from E major to F minor? I heard a really neat Alegrias falseta in a Zorro movie some years ago that sounds like it may be the same chord progression. Where can I find music, a TAB, video, MP3, whatever???

Thanks



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