Guitar Purchasing Questions (Full Version)

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mhughes30 -> Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 11 2011 16:51:05)

I am looking at getting a new flamenco guitar and am considering the following:

J Marcario 145 flamenco guitar from France
- sold on ebay ($1012, MSRP $2200)
- solid spruce top, solid cypress back and sides
- ebony fingerboard
- it looks beautiful in the pictures, is described nicely, and is sold by a top-rated seller, but I've never heard of the guitar.

Loriente Carmen
- I actually played this and liked it (selling for $1999 almost everywhere)
- solid spruce top, solid cypress back and sides

I currently have the student model Navarro flamenco blanca (paid $649 for it), but want to upgrade to something nicer. I feel that it sounds pretty classical to me.

Can you guys give me any advice?
Should I spend more money on a guitar to get what I want, a solid flamenco-sounding guitar that also has some versatility to play newer classical pieces?
Does anyone know anything about J Marcario guitars?

I'm new here, and this seemed like the proper place for this question. I apologize if it is not.

Thanks!



doublek -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 11 2011 16:59:43)

Don't worry Mhughes30 you have chosen the right place , all depends on your budget and are you looking forward for what? there is too many websites also can help to see more guitars (La sonanta) (mundo-flamenco) ..they select a good guitars and can suits all the budgets i am sorry i know nothing about those guitars you were mentioning ..good luck [;)]



Sean -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 11 2011 17:15:21)

You can check with Tom Nunez at Lafalseta he is a member here, you will hear nothing but good things about him.



Don Dionisio -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 11 2011 17:22:59)

There are several luthiers who frequently contribute to discussions here.
To me, you should consider one of their guitars.
I own several guitars, one of which was made by Aaron Green, in MA. His guitars are considerably more expensive; however, they are concert-quality instruments that could be compared with some of the best in the world.

One of my students just received a guitar by Andy Culpepper, who makes handmade guitars at very reasonable prices ($2000-$2600). It is an excellent guitar.
There are many others to choose from and I am just listing those whom I have had contact with and have spend a lot of time playing.
In my opinion, you will quickly become dissatisfied with the guitars you are considering since they probably won't be a hugh improvement over your current instrument. Or, perhaps they might be for a few months...



at_leo_87 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 11 2011 20:34:22)

i agree with don. just save up a little bit more and get something better.

i have a guitar by andy culpepper and i love it! highly recommended!



keith -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 11 2011 23:28:51)

mhughes30--ultimately this is going to come down to how much cash you want to spend for a guitar. the guitar you mentioned, marcario, is, i would imagine, a factory guitar. there is a carmen at guitar salon international for $1.6K and you mentioned you liked the guitar--the one you played. again, it is a factory guitar and most will tell you factory guitars can be extremely variable or if they are consistent they can be boringly consistent. if your budget is around $1K i would recommend either buying used or trying the guitar salon series--there is a guitar there for $900--it has a youtube video so you can check it out. these guitars are, i am pretty sure, built in china which means for $900 you are getting a lot. a couple of years ago i tried out one of the g.s.i. china built flamencos and it was a damn good guitar.

as msrp--a lot of businesses super inflate the cost and then sell at a much lower price--makes the consumer feel like he is getting a deal when in fact he is getting the product at what most people sell it for. i would not even consider msrp if i am looking to buy a product.

i would always recommend spending as much as you can possibly tolerate for a guitar. cheap eventually catches up to you.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 12 2011 3:00:59)

Hi –

Welcome to the Foro. As others have said, you came to the right place.

So much depends on both your budget and your playing level. It's okay to get more guitar than you're ready for, but you don't want to get too much more guitar than you're ready for, nor less than your ability calls for.

I'm not familiar with Marcario guitars, but I have seen a J. Marcario new flamenco guitar advertised on Ebay with an "MSRP of $2225, but our price is only $972." That alone would give me doubts, and then it is followed by "or make us an offer." You can draw your own conclusions.

If you think you're ready for a fine luthier guitar, then you should consider that, if your budget can manage it. On the other hand, if either your budget or your playing level is not up to a luthier guitar, and you want a good step up from the Navarro, you should consider a really good factory guitar.

You mentioned that you want a guitar that would also be suitable for classical. That Loriente Carmen that you played and liked would probably be an excellent choice. It has a great flamenco sound and action, and also comes in a Negra, which would be well suited for classical as well as flamenco.

Here's a clip of a Carmen Negra:



Ramon



mhughes30 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 12 2011 3:21:01)

The Loriente Carmen seemed good to me, but I wasn't blown away by it. I did seem to like it more than my Navarro, but I really need to play the two side by side to know for sure. I always think guitars sound better in the showroom. :-)

I'm going to stay away from the Marcario, since it seems so unknown, and given the price discrepancies you guys mentioned.

I would like to check with some luthiers here. I heard some clips of Andy Culpepper's guitars, and they seem pretty sweet.

I have been playing guitar for about 16 years, classical for about 6, and flamenco for under a year. I am just a mediocre flamenco player, but am devout with practicing and getting better. I can afford up to $3000 on a guitar, and I feel a guitar in that range will be reasonable for my skills and goals. And, I really want a quality hand-made instrument.

Thanks for all the feedback! This forum is awesome!



mhughes30 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 12 2011 3:22:02)

I think Grisha could make a plywood box sound good, lol



HolyEvil -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 12 2011 4:36:38)

For 3000 and you're in america.. I would suggest Andy Culpepper, Stephen Faulk (who is having a special on a few blancas, check the for sale page), also I've read Peter Tsoirba (sorry if I spelt it wrongly) is very good too.

Andy has a blanca for sale atm.. maybe discuss with him off the foro?

cheers



BarkellWH -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 12 2011 6:48:44)

I highly recommend a Manuel Adalid Viviana flamenco, either blanca or negra. They run about US$2,500. Check out "Zavaleta's La Casa de Guitarras" website. I bought one a couple of years ago, and it has a great flamenco sound and setup. Manuel Adalid is the chief luthier at the House of Esteve, but the Viviana is his own niche. Great guitar for the price.

Cheers,

Bill



JuanDaBomb -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 12 2011 8:52:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mhughes30

I think Grisha could make a plywood box sound good, lol


I agree :-P I like watching those Grisha videos, but they're not very helpful as far as choosing a guitar goes, for me anyways....

Have you checked out my review in the Product Reviews section of the foro? [;)] That particular guitar would be my recommendation for sure. [:)]



Ramon Amira -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 12 2011 15:31:16)

As long as you can afford a luthier guitar, I would highly recommend Peter Tsiorba or Jeff Sigurdson. Both of them get very strong reviews from players who own their guitars.

Ramon



mhughes30 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 15 2011 5:52:08)

Thanks for all the replies.

I was definitely considering an Andy Culpepper because his guitars sounds awesome and there is a lot of good feedback.

But, I found a Benito Huipe flamenco that is local in San Diego, and I really loved it, so I bought it. It is definitely a step up from my Navarro. It has traditional flamenco tuning pegs, spruce/cypress. Also, interestingly it has a slight arch to the top, something Benito borrowed from his violin-making brother, supposedly. It has a very snappy, percussive flamenco sounds, and projects nicely.



mhughes30 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 15 2011 5:54:20)

Those video's don't help me much either! I actually think the quality of guitars should be reversed. :-) Student guitars should be of the highest quality, and the professional guitars should be like the student guitars, lol. When you're at that skill level, everything sounds incredible to the listener.



JuanDaBomb -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 15 2011 8:32:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mhughes30

But, I found a Benito Huipe flamenco that is local in San Diego, and I really loved it, so I bought it.



Congrats on your new guitar. [:)] My teacher swears by Benito Huipe's guitars. They do sound very nice. The one my teacher plays has like a "twangy", gypsy quality to it (that's about as best as I can describe it). Do you have a pic of it, by any chance?



Steve Wright -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 15 2011 19:13:12)

quote:

Student guitars should be of the highest quality, and the professional guitars should be like the student guitars, At that skill level, everything sounds incredible to the listener.


Yes, Student should select a guitar of the highest quality they can afford. This will help them in their pursuit. Professional sound incredible on lesser quality guitars, but awesome on the best guitars.

I think the Luthiers state the a guitar is a student guitar simply to show it has had less time spent on it and less money invested in it in materials and hence may reflect some difference in sound quality or play-ability. However, most reputable Luthiers like their products to be very playable.

I'm a potter and potters some under the "Craft" label as "artists" like to separate themselves from "Crafts" and make a clear distinction. Luthier's are both Artists and crafts-persons. Their craft is in making the guitar of say a set design. Their art is in the fine details they create for the guitar to make it that much more beautiful. If we want to extra fine detail, we need to pay for it. I've pondered making an acoustic guitar for some time and these little extras, like inlays cost a lot of money and take time to incorporate into the design. And if he gets it wrong, he starts again at his expense. A master guitar is worth every penny when we examine the love that has gone into the creation. I marvel at some of the work they do.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 15 2011 23:09:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Wright

Their art is in the fine details they create for the guitar to make it that much more beautiful. If we want to extra fine detail, we need to pay for it. I've pondered making an acoustic guitar for some time and these little extras, like inlays cost a lot of money and take time to incorporate into the design. And if he gets it wrong, he starts again at his expense. A master guitar is worth every penny when we examine the love that has gone into the creation. I marvel at some of the work they do.


Steve, I'm sorry to disagree with you but this is simply not true. Some of the very best guitars I've played have been very simple unadorned and basic looking (ex. Hernandez-Aquado or early Esteso). The way you tell a master guitar maker is by playing his intruments not looking at them.



Morante -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 16 2011 15:48:23)

He tocado varias guitarras de Jeronimo Peña: son las más bellas que he visto nunca pero el sonido es regular. Me gustaría tener una de palillos para colgarla en la pared. Para tocar, Gerundino o Reyes, guitarras sin adorno pero con sonido inigualable.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 16 2011 22:41:32)

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estebanana -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 17 2011 0:53:00)

What do you play on now Neal(f)?



jshelton5040 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 17 2011 16:02:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf


(the only guitar I'd tell you to buy sight unseen would be a F. Barba).


I guess this makes you a Barba "groupie".



estebanana -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 17 2011 16:12:41)

Barba has been very consistent over the years making very flamenco guitars. I'm surprised he does not have a higher visibility like old so and so in Cordoba.



Steve Wright -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 17 2011 18:11:30)

quote:

Some of the very best guitars I've played have been very simple unadorned and basic looking


Hi John, Yes, that is what I am trying to say. If you read it in context, I was talking "art" & "Craft". A luthier can "Craft" a good guitar (Brilliant possibly) but adorn it with little decor. The decor only adds beauty. It doesn't make it play better or sound better. I live by what I say. I have a Martin CR-1 which is a Thomas Humphrey design but with a Martin price tag. It is hand-made and has little decor and plays very nicely. If I had bought it from Thomas Humphrey I would have paid 10X the cost for the same sound. So I fully agree with your point. This doesn't take away from the fact that Luthiers who charge £5,000 to £20,000 are worth their rate because of the attention to detail, decor and their own design tweaks. My first advice to my wife when she bought a guitar was not to look at what it looks like. See how it plays - how it sounds.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 17 2011 18:11:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Barba has been very consistent over the years making very flamenco guitars. I'm surprised he does not have a higher visibility like old so and so in Cordoba.

The ones I've played ranged from ok to good. I didn't covet any of them but I agree with you that they are very flamenco just not to my taste.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 17 2011 21:40:58)

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jshelton5040 -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 17 2011 22:55:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf

John - you are right, I am a Barba groupie .... muy muy flamenco, modern sounding guitars, they work and have what I consider to be close to perfect pulsation (his later models 2000 and up are far better ... counter-intuitively perhaps because his kids are involved ... or at least that is my suspicion because his current guitars are all to such uniform consistency).



Nealf,
You are correct, all the ones I've played were pre-2000. The one I liked best which I played back in the late 70's had flame maple back and sides.

If it weren't for different preferences everyone would play the same guitars...wouldn't that be boring. My favorite guitars (leaving out the obvious preference for my own) have been a Paolino Bernabe and a Ramirez from the late 60's. The Bernabe was absolutely amazing for volume and percussion. It played like a dream and was ugly as sin but I really, really wanted it. No chance of course since the fellow who owned it knew how good it was.



BarkellWH -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 17 2011 23:38:28)

quote:

I noticed on this foro people have become somewhat reverential towards the "resident luthiers" ... each question or recommendation on a guitar is inevitable met with a chorus of "buy a custom from one of the resident luthiers" .... its not helpful.


Not everyone, Nealf. Without being prejudicial to resident Foro luthiers, I always recommend a Manuel Adalid Viviana, as I did on just this thread in an earlier posting. I do so because I have had experience with Manuel Adalid and consider the Viviana a first-rate flamenca for the price.

Cheers,

Bill



estebanana -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 18 2011 0:30:08)

quote:

You are correct, all the ones I've played were pre-2000. The one I liked best which I played back in the late 70's had flame maple back and sides.


I have a good buddy with a 2004 he commissioned in 2000. It took Barba four years to get to him on the list. Was it worth it. A great instrument. I've also noticed the same thing about Barba's work. Earlier guitars are more funky, but mostly still to my liking. Many of the guitars from the 1980's are quite fine, but then mid 90's until the present they are consistently fantastic.

After all when you commission one you are essentially committing to a guitar sight and sound unseen. And Barba did justice to my friends 4000.00 dollars in year the 2000 AD money. Lucky me I get to borrow it to play when he brings it in to have work done on it. He rotates them in to me, a Reyes, a Conde', (which I treat with loving care despite my jabs at some Conde's) , and the Barba. It's quite the quiver an I'm lucky he brings them in.

The Reyes is a 1969, small voice, but oh my goodness, people who know nothing about guitars turn their heads when it is played and ask what it is and why it sounds so gorgeous. The Barba is a little harder to play, not because it's duro, but because it's super sensitive and you can jangle around if you don't pay attention. But if you are on top of your game and you learn what it can do it's got reserves. It's not a guitar that can play itself and be at its best, it sort of challenges you to make it go, but if you want it, it never stops giving back.

That is what I like about the Barba's I've played, the ones built by him or with help from his family, most of them have had a great feel in the hand, but also things to explore. ( He does have a line of less expensive ones, that are ok, but I'd rather forget he does that:) ) They are not one dimensional. I know there are a lot of great builders in Spain, but I honestly think Barba should be counted as one of the underrated masters. Just my opinion.

I think I'm also partial to Barba because I've been able to see and play some really fine ones that live near me. And they have been influential on me as a builder. Perhaps I have a bias, but I'll stick to saying he's an more important than he gets credit for.



Stephen Eden -> RE: Guitar Purchasing Questions (Jul. 18 2011 15:36:00)

I love that forum groupies! I don't have any forum groupies :(. I don't think anyone on this forum can say they have tried one of my guitars and I doubt anyone would ever recomend me here either for the same reason. It's no bother to me though I am just here because I love talking about guitar building and reading about guitar building.

I don't think I could ever reccomend any of the factory made instruments though. I played a very nice 1930's I think Domingo esteso a few weeks back though. Doubt the price tag would suit the original poster though.

It is tough buying your first flamenco guitar though because you don't know what you like in one so Nealfs advice on playing loads is a pretty good start.

as far as reccomending the resident guitar makers on the foro goes. it is a sign of respect really. We all give our time over to trying to give advice to others so why not reccomend us if you think we are worth recomending.

I have just recently found out the there are some pretty amazing flamenco guitarists out there reccomending my guitars to there students, but I still fully expect any one of them to want to try out a guitar before they commit to ordering one. Just because something is to their there taste does not mean that it is to your own. Like fine wine I guess.



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