Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Full Version)

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HolyEvil -> Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 4:39:29)

Hey guys.. just wondering due to the location of this crack, how much roughly it would be to fix this? Would it need gluing alone or is it always gluing and cleating?
It's about 7cm long and located about 1cm from the binding.

cheers



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Doitsujin -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 8:03:30)

I could imagine a guitarmaker would stabelyze it from the backside. I would go and let it repaired.

Where did the crack come from?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 8:20:45)

First of all. This kind of cracks is not to dangerous. Many guitars have survived years or even decades with this kind of cracks without being repaired.
The reason is that it wont get any bigger, its a part of the guitar where it doesnt affect structural issues very much and soundwise its normally not something you can hear.
But it is, of course, better to have it repaired.

Its important to know how long time its been like that. Cracks get dirty with time and when dirty, glue doesnt work very well. If clean, I would try to glue it only. If not, I would place a patch below. That is if I could get my hands close to the crack inside the guitar. Sometimes when the soundhole is small, I cant. (find yourself a really small repairman/woman.

Why did it crack? Was it because it dried out? In this case I would humidify the guitar in order to close the crack. It makes gluing so much easyer.

Cost... Not to much. I would charge 50,-€



Jeff Highland -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 10:26:46)

$50 or so I agree with Anders if its clean it probably won't need cleating.
Hot hide glue only



Rmn -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 11:26:38)

oh man, I wish I was near to you guys Anders and Jeff. these bastard shops in Amsterdam would charge like 250 euros for this. hate them.
I have exactly the same crack in one of my guitars: guitar bag strap broke when I was carrying it on my back (with the guitar inside) and fell



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 15:36:55)

the seller had the guitar sitting under the bed for the past few years.
Actually the crack is actually not obvious when you look at it face on..
story goes, I chance upon this flamenco guitar, got it at a good price, seller mentioned near mint.
I went to check it out, didn't notice the cracks (there's actually 2, this one and another that is REALLY hard to see). Seeing the saddle was all the way down and action seemed a little high, asked him how many mm it was, he told me it was 3, told him it looked a little higher than that, but he assured me as he just got it setup, frets were all polished and fretboard clean, guitar was very clean too.

Came home with it, checked with a ruler and its 4mm.. grrrrrrr
I'm trying to get him to fork out 1/2 the fixing up cost, wanna get a new fretboard to lower the action (would need your aid again Jeff if you're ok with it). and get the cracks glued up.

the guitar itself sounds pretty good, very very light, very raspy, loud and balsy,
now I'm deciding whether to return it if the seller won't split the cost (if he'll take it back)

i've attached another pic of the 2nd crack I just found 6 hrs ago.

I'm doing my nighshift now, have my sinsonido (thanks again to jeff for introducting it) and hopefully not too many sick patients.

p/s- why is it important to know how long it has been like that? just for the dirt issue? any other reasons?


thanks for the replies guys.



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Sean -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 17:28:59)

If its dirty Hide glue won't work and regular glue will have to be used instead. Keep it clean and humidify it well in its case, you will probably see the crack tighten up some. Any repair attempts would be pointless right now if the guitar is still bone dry.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 20:17:26)

Yeah mainly the contamination, anytime somone runs a finger over the crack, may not stop it being glued , but it won't be invisible.
Happy to help if you keep it Skye.
It may not need such drastic measures to get to 3mm from 4, how high are the strings over the soundboard just in front of the bridge?



rombsix -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 11 2011 20:44:33)

quote:

I'm doing my nighshift now, have my sinsonido (thanks again to jeff for introducting it) and hopefully not too many sick patients.


Are you a medical doctor, Skye?



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 3:43:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

If its dirty Hide glue won't work and regular glue will have to be used instead. Keep it clean and humidify it well in its case, you will probably see the crack tighten up some. Any repair attempts would be pointless right now if the guitar is still bone dry.


Do I just get one of those planet waves soundhole humidifiers?
How long shoud I humidity the guitar before sending it for repair?
About a week? Sorry I've never humidifier a guitar before.

Cheers



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 3:52:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

Yeah mainly the contamination, anytime somone runs a finger over the crack, may not stop it being glued , but it won't be invisible.
Happy to help if you keep it Skye.
It may not need such drastic measures to get to 3mm from 4, how high are the strings over the soundboard just in front of the bridge?


I better stop running my fingers over the crack then.
The height over bridge is 8mm over soundhole is 9mm.

The frets are virtually brand new. All similar height about 1mm, not worn down like the david macias negra that u helped me with, so I believe the guy's story of it sitting under his bed for the past few years.

One thing about the fretboard is that it's 6mm at the nut,
5mm at the 12th fret and 4mm at the soundhole. I've checked out another flamenco of the maker's and the fingerboard is made the same way.
So I'm thinking a tiny wedge would good here rather than a whole new fretboard due to the great frets it still has on now.

But still waiting for the seller to reply to me.



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 3:54:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

I'm doing my nighshift now, have my sinsonido (thanks again to jeff for introducting it) and hopefully not too many sick patients.


Are you a medical doctor, Skye?


Not a doc but someone that your speciality works with, I'm a radiographer :)



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 7:58:45)

quote:

The height over bridge is 8mm over soundhole is 9mm.

The frets are virtually brand new. All similar height about 1mm, not worn down like the david macias negra that u helped me with, so I believe the guy's story of it sitting under his bed for the past few years.

One thing about the fretboard is that it's 6mm at the nut,
5mm at the 12th fret and 4mm at the soundhole. I've checked out another flamenco of the maker's and the fingerboard is made the same way.
So I'm thinking a tiny wedge would good here rather than a whole new fretboard due to the great frets it still has on now.


You have a guitar with a tapered fingerboard (6mm at the nut, 4mm at soundhole), a 4mm setup and 8mm at the bridge.... Its not going to be that easy... There are some angles that have to be adjusted here and I´m not to sure its going to be a nice setup.
There might be some things in your explication that I misunderstand, but if I´ve understood you right, and you brought the guitar to me asking me to make a 3mm setup, I would probably say no....... depending a bit on the neck and other things. To me it sounds like the guitar has a very flat neckangle and maybe also a strong dome on the top. (or it could be a warped neck) Not the nicest to work with.

Also when you work fingerboards, on Spanish guitars, its standard procedure to refret.. Even though you take off the fingerboard and make a wedge, it would be a good idea to refret in order to get a really good setup.

So you have a guitar with 2 cracks, a very widegrained soundboard and a setup that from your description is difficult to work with. Are you sure its worth the effort to fix it?

I´m not trying to be negative. On the contrary... I´m trying to be helpfull and I hope that what I just wrote will be proved to be wrong.[;)]



Jeff Highland -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 8:45:45)

Yeah, what Anders says is right, it's not easy and may not be worth it.but if you have it now and cant get a refund......
I would have to see the instument but it may be able to be approached like this...
-Take the saddle and bridge down to 7mm above the top, if necessary converting to 12 hole tie block. this will get you 0.5mm reduction in 12th fret string height
If that is not enough for you,
- pull the frets and plane from 12th fret down to nut to take of 1mm at the nut
That would get you another 0.5m at the 12th



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 9:50:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

So you have a guitar with 2 cracks, a very widegrained soundboard and a setup that from your description is difficult to work with. Are you sure its worth the effort to fix it?

I´m not trying to be negative. On the contrary... I´m trying to be helpfull and I hope that what I just wrote will be proved to be wrong.[;)]


no idea.. i'm contacting the seller.. but he's kinda avoiding me now...
He didn't look like someone who would do that actually.. =(

I'll keep what u said in mind.. just about the 12 hole bridge that Jeff suggested.. I'll reply below..



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 9:55:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

Yeah, what Anders says is right, it's not easy and may not be worth it.but if you have it now and cant get a refund......
I would have to see the instument but it may be able to be approached like this...
-Take the saddle and bridge down to 7mm above the top, if necessary converting to 12 hole tie block. this will get you 0.5mm reduction in 12th fret string height
If that is not enough for you,
- pull the frets and plane from 12th fret down to nut to take of 1mm at the nut
That would get you another 0.5m at the 12th



hey jeff.. do you have the equipment to convert it to a 12 hole bridge? I don't mind removing the bridge, then drilling the extra 6 holes then regluing the bridge if it make moot of the neck angle issue.

if you can.. would this work?
convert to 12 hole bridge for break angle, deepen the current saddle slot 2-2.5mm, shave the top of the saddle slot down (where it's holding the saddle, have no idea what the correct term is, slot holder??), the current saddle depth is about 4mm above the soundboard. thus lowering the action by 1mm.
I'll show in 2 pictures..



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HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 9:58:31)

to something like this. thus making the height over bridge 6mm, about 7-8mm over soundhole, to 3mm action over the 12th fret.

feasible? seems easier than the replacing fretboard issue.

EDIT: i know this would make the guitar sounder a little more trebly.
and I'm not saying shave all the slot holder.. just the top 2 mm, and a little of the back portion so the break angle won't be resting on the wood.



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Sean -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 13:57:29)

Is there a big chunk of binding missing by the crack?



Jeff Highland -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 21:30:38)

I can do the 12 hole conversion in situ, no need to remove the bridge.
I have a long 1/16" drill bit it is a straght forward operation.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 21:41:35)

I would be reluctant to take it right down to 6mm, it may start affecting the sound and may not have enough break angle even with the 12 hole conversion.
But yes that is the process I was suggesting, it is a lot more straight forward and cheaper than modifying the fretboard and may get you close enough to the desired action.



Steve Wright -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 12 2011 22:19:35)

I didn't have a clue what a 12 hole bridge was, so researched it and it's exactly what I had been looking for - as I felt the the regular way of stringing up a guitar (nylon strung) affected the break angle. I have guitar that has been sabotaged and has some faults on it and this problem brought to my attention issues with break angle. It seems this 12 hole alteration is a good one for me and will help with one problem. I came across this page that shows how to string them up http://www.jameslisterguitars.co.uk/ListerGuitars/12-hole_tie_block.htm not quite as beautiful as the regular way, but performance is the priority.



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 13 2011 3:25:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

Is there a big chunk of binding missing by the crack?


Nothing is missing.. It's actually not much used..



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 13 2011 3:30:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

I would be reluctant to take it right down to 6mm, it may start affecting the sound and may not have enough break angle even with the 12 hole conversion.
But yes that is the process I was suggesting, it is a lot more straight forward and cheaper than modifying the fretboard and may get you close enough to the desired action.


Hmmm would we be able to take the bridge down 2mm, but have 2 saddles like how u did for me in the past, 1 to keep it at 7mm, 1 to keep at 6mm?



Jeff Highland -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 13 2011 3:35:56)

Yeah could do that



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 13 2011 3:36:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Wright

. I have guitar that has been sabotaged and has some faults on it and this problem brought to my attention issues with break angle. It seems this 12 hole alteration is a good one for me and will help with one problem..


12 hole bridge is an awesome innovation.
Makes it so much easier on the fingers, and alot quicker too.

Cheers



Jeff Highland -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 13 2011 6:33:19)

I dig 12 hole bridges and 18 hole



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Jun. 15 2011 0:46:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

I dig 12 hole bridges and 18 hole


yep.. don't understand why isn't everyone doing it.
Will be showing my guitar to my teacher this week and see what he says..

thanks Jeff..



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Nov. 10 2011 21:45:23)

quick update, just got the guitar back from a local luthier, he diagnosed the high action due to a neck bow on the guitar, he took the original board off, straightened the neck, put a carbon fibre rod in, put a new thicker fretboard which took the board thickness to 6mm (from 4mm) at the 12th fret and now the set up is about 9mm bridge, 10mm over soundhole, 3mm action bass, about 2.8 action treble.
Like i said in my other posts, the guitar is about 1.2kg, very loud (louder than my David Macias Negra - thanks orson) and ballsy and has a tone totally different from my negra. Another thing is when I play my negra, when i strike an open string or a note, other strings that are not struck vibrate more and on this guitar there's less of it..

It's playing great now. just that the pegs might need servicing.. some pegs feel tight, or I'm just not working it correctly..
when I wanna tune it up slightly to pitch.. it's so hard to turn on some pegs..
Is it better to tune higher than pitch, and then pull string strings (ala stretching the string when new) to lower it to the correct pitch?

cheers



HolyEvil -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Nov. 10 2011 21:52:18)

btw the nut height annoying me.. i got him to lower the nut action when I was there but forgot to ask him to shave the top of the nut down.. is it an easy job to do myself? should I do it with strings on or with the string off?



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Jeff Highland -> RE: Crack photo + rough cost to cleat/glue? (Nov. 10 2011 23:24:08)

Strings off but just loosen them and pull them to the sides.
80 grit sandpaper on a backer board or a coarse file to get the bulk off then work through finer grades to smooth and polish



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