Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Full Version)

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Guitarproject -> Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 30 2011 19:17:40)

Hi ! I want to buy a flamenco guitar under 1000$ ! I am interested in Francisco Navarro Student 1 and Tomatito Alcazaba Blanca ! I would like to know opinions about these guitars and if you have other offers please give me to know



Tomrocker -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 30 2011 20:55:51)

I believe if this possible, you should try both guitars. Factory Guitars can surprise you. I would suggest you a Valerian Bernal for example only cuz it is really comfortable between my hands to play or A Hnos Sanchis too. Both the Navarro and the Tomatito are good. Depends on your connection and feeling towards it. Good luck with your purchase [;)]



gounaro -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 30 2011 21:02:50)

I agrre with Tomrocker. I will go for a Bernal Nogal as my second guitar. Just check it at Bernal site. It also has some videos.



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 4:40:36)

Now I have two guitars Esteve 3ECE classical and Yamaha CG171SF flamenco and these guitars have defects ! That's why I don't trust factorial guitars any more ! Is bernal also factorial??



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 12:10:35)

quote:

Is bernal also factorial??


yes....



at_leo_87 -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 14:16:47)

i have a francisco navarro concert model that i love.

a lot of people here on this forum have had good experiences with navarro's guitar.

i personally wouldn't buy any artist endorsed guitars.



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 14:35:54)

Thanks a lot



orsonw -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 14:49:20)

quote:

Is bernal also factorial??


But not at all like Yamaha.

The luthier Valeriano Bernal set up a large workshop where about 15 guitars can be made at once. Bernal has since retired, now his son builds with the help of family members. Guitars are built in the traditional way but it's not just one lone man building one guitar.
I've been there, to call it a factory is not really representative. But whatever it's called they make guitars I really like, easy to play, responsive and good flamenco sound.

Bernal factory


Yamaha factory


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Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 16:09:30)

But is Bernal better than aTomatito or navarro



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 16:11:06)

Normally guitars like Bernal and Hnos Sanchis lopez are called small factory guitars.

big factory, small factory, medium factory, medium-small factory etc.



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 16:31:13)

Hnos Sanchis Lopez is too expensive I want to buy something under 1000 or 1200$ ! my friend had bought a sanchis lopez and I have examined it attentively I think it has a low bridge and excellent sound but it hasn't a good flamenco neck its not enough flat



avimuno -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (May 31 2011 18:13:46)

I used to own a Hermanos Sanchis Lopez 1F... I have only great things to say about it! It sounded amazing, muy flamenco and very much in the 'Conde' type of sound.
I did however buy it when they were still affordable... seems that the Sanchis brothers have gathered so much hype in the past years that their guitars have become really expensive.
I am currently in Sevilla, and I have tried quite a few of them here... good guitars, as usual, but way overpriced I think!

Why don't you try to check some luthier made guitars... the reputation is that they are expensive. But you can find a really good instrument that was made by one person with really good materials for not that much.

Juan Lopez Aguilarte makes some amazing sounding guitars... you cn find them for around EUR 1,500, which I think is a bargain for an instrument of this quality.

Anders makes his 2A model which is also very affordable.

Check them out!



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 14:41:15)

quote:

Anders makes his 2A model which is also very affordable.


Hmm. Long time, me no building no 2A.



kominak -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 15:17:01)

quote:


I have examined it attentively I think it has a low bridge and excellent sound but it hasn't a good flamenco neck its not enough flat


Just a question - what makes you think that flamenco guitars should have flat back of the neck? I always thought that the contour of the neck is a matter of preference - there are flamenco guitars with flat and with round shape and there are classical guitars with flat and with round shape. I even played electric guitars with both flat and round contour...
Some players prefer flat, some prefer round, on my strat I like "V" shaped neck a lot...



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 16:37:44)

It's widely known that flamenco guitar must have flat back of the neck because if it is round and especially if you are playing hard compozitions your left hand will quicklu get tired



avimuno -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 16:41:16)

quote:

Hmm. Long time, me no building no 2A.


You stopped Anders? I thought I remembered reading a post here about you starting to build a 'segunda' model... my bad [:)]



avimuno -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 16:46:56)

quote:

It's widely known that flamenco guitar must have flat back of the neck because if it is round and especially if you are playing hard compozitions your left hand will quicklu get tired


Not true at all actually... many builders build with pretty chunky necks, which can be round (Reyes for example) or flat (Conde for example).

Actually Reyes' necks are really chunky, but also really comfortable. Barba probably builds the thinnest/flattest necks I've played, and they are not even that thin/flat.

I don't think that there's a rule when it comes to necks... it's a question of taste and getting used to it... as for your left hand getting tired when playing hard compositions on a round neck... I don't think that the neck has anything to do with it, it's all down to practice and hard work... ask Vicente Amigo, Tomatito and Antonio Rey!

Saludos



odinz -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 16:58:09)

I didnt know that flamenco guitars must have flat necks from anywhere either, i like all kinds of necks, its not the size that matters right?[:D]

I also think it is all about preference, on my classical guitars, wich are really really chunky and have high action the left hand still does not get any more tired actually.



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 17:41:29)

If you play on a flamenco guitar a hard flamenco composition with hard barres and then play the same on classical guitar if you are a flamenco guitarist you will fill the difference



XXX -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 17:59:59)

I took my guitar to a luthier to THICKEN the neck. He did it so well that you cant see any difference between the old and new wood and actually his finish looks nicer than the one before.



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 18:18:55)

why did you take your guitar to THICKEN it's neck ???[sm=rolleyes.gif]



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 18:20:26)

Hey Odinz you said you would send me the pictures of the neck?



XXX -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 18:29:17)

coz all guitars i tried so far had too thin or flat necks.



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 1 2011 18:39:53)

For every flamenco guitarist I think flat neck must be excellent



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 2 2011 5:21:16)

Are Navarro guitars 100% hand made ???



n85ae -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 2 2011 19:12:09)

One man building one guitar at a time is basically a factory ... what really matters - is the end result a quality
product or not? The ONLY way to determine that is to play the guitar and decide. One man can build a pile
of junk, a factory full of workers can create fine guitars ... Also the opposite can happen.

I would prefer to buy a guitar from one man, who built it for me. But reality is they cost a LOT more
than guitars that come from "factories", and I have several factory guitars that I am very happy with.

Regards,
Jeff



Kalo -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 2 2011 22:51:31)

Guitarproject,

I just Pm'd you as I have a Student Flamenco guitar and I am putting it up for sale!!!

I am asking $600.00!

It is in MINT condition and I have only had it for a year!!!

Let me know if you are interested!

Thanks,

Kalo



estebanana -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 3 2011 0:30:07)

The blue shirted MBA manager in the Yamaha video can barely understand what parts a guitar is made of. ( sorry to squish the low hanging fruit. ) [:D]

Re: Thicker necks. It's a fallacy to think thinner necks are better. Two things come up, one is the distance the opposable thumb and forefinger have to close in on the neck. There is a point at which the hand is weaker or structurally compromised if the distance between thumb and forefinger is too close. Thicker necks can be easier to grip and play because the thumb is not hyper extended in the action of closing the gap between thumb and fingers. Hyper extending the thumb can cause stress on the thumb because it has o over reach to exert enough force to depress the string.

On many older Spanish guitars the necks are thicker than many necks today. It is interesting in to note that people who lived in Spain 50, 60, 70 years ago were probably smaller than we are today. And their hands also smaller in relation to stature. Yet you see many thick necks on older instruments which have been unaltered.

The other thing is that necks that have a bit more mass can't be all that bad, once the mass starts vibrating, it takes longer to make it stop.

Flat necks have a problem too, often the bottom "corner" of the neck can be an impediment to the thumb moving over the neck laterally. In other words from bass to treble side and back. Some flat necks can feel good a work fine, but the 'D' shape is usually better. ( but not always depending on the player) Just an observation. Personally I like a neck with a bit of meat in it so my hand so not get cramped up, but there are builders who take the beefy neck too far.

I like the Goldilocks neck, not too fat or too thin, it's just right. [:D]



Michael1917 -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 3 2011 18:58:19)

Hi, you should speak with Ron hudson, who is one of the importer/dealers of Navarro guitars, or tom Nunez. I have owned 2 Navarros, both student models, one was a spruce top, one was cedar top. Francisco Navarro has apprentices that build his student model flamenco guitars. I think Francisco is the main luthier for the higher end "concert level" guitars he sells. Overall, I think the Navarros, even the student models, are far better made and more-for-the-money than factory guitars in that price range ($800/$900). You really do get a very good guitar for the money. And with the few people I know who sell Navarros in the US, there is an approval period---you can return the guitar if you don' t like it for whatever reason.

You should consider shopping around, though, posisbly for a used flamenco if you're thinking of spending $1000. You can find some decent second-hand hand-made flamenco guitars, from Spain or here in the USA, in that price range. Good luck.



Guitarproject -> RE: Navarro or Tomatito ???? (Jun. 4 2011 7:25:52)

My friend has recently bought an Antonio aparicio AA90F Blanca It's a good guitar and very easy played ! It costs 1400$ in Russia ! Now I dont know which guitar is better to buy Navarro Student 1 or Antonio aparicio AA90F



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