Flamenco therapy... (Full Version)

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annemarie -> Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 20 2011 18:21:53)

Hola everyone, I don't know if this forum is the right place for a post like this, but just something I was thinking about just now while listening to Fernanda de Utrera:

Isn't flamenco the perfect therapy? Or maybe more like a life companion who always understands everything and anything you may be feeling, and who offers universal consolation for your troubles. I think flamenco saved me from quite a few depressions (also very recently [:)] ).. On a practical level sometimes I wonder what on earth I would be doing with my life if it wasn't for flamenco (not just as a flamenco lover and dancer, but also as a producer etc)..

Do you guys feel like this too? Do you fall back on flamenco when things aren't going so well? Maybe you even use your heart aches as an inspiration when you play/sing/dance? Or maybe it's really just an interesting form of music for you?




bursche -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 20 2011 18:55:23)

Hm...things used to go well because of flamenco, no need for any therapy [;)]




Harry -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 20 2011 19:21:33)

Hello,

yes definitely for me flamenco was always around because my father played classical guitar and was into Spanish culture, but in my teens I was very unhappy and angry. Flamenco helped a great deal, and it does still now. If I don't play for a few days I get very cranky. Like now for example, I feel anxious because I have not played in a week. My guitar is getting a set up and it's the only one I own. Perhaps it's time to add a second one to the collection.

I imagine that dance must be especially liberating. I would not say that I turn to it specifically for this type of emotion always, but to me flamenco is a music that is dark. Any flamenco artist who does not have that touch of dark will never be able to express that feeling which is what I personally like about flamenco. It is a feeling of defiance.




Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 20 2011 23:43:50)

I could think of that the suggestion might especially apply to dancers.

Possibly, for being pushed to be energetic, yet not forced to smile / to pretend cheerfulness as with most of other dance styles.
The rather dramatic expression in flamenco could be ideal for who wants to shake off without obligate cheery masque.

- My two flamenco dancing cousin nieces used to say that I delivered well when fooling around on the dance floor.
Maybe it fit me, as the ol´ grumpy bloke that I am.

Ruphus




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Florian -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 3:13:55)

I know what you saying Annmarie..

its true no matter what no matter what bad and how bad things have been i have always had flamenco through my life ...when it needed to it got me through alot of things ..its been a friend i could always relie on ...its never ever let me down..always inspired me...always found the song to match whatever emotion i am feeling

and its responsible for bringing alot of good things in my life and made me feel feelings that if i wouldn't have my life would have felt empty without knowing it




XXX -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 6:55:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: annemarie
Isn't flamenco the perfect therapy?


If i count my injuries i would say "no" [:D]




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 7:31:24)

If you like flamenco, it can act like a therapy. It can be depressing as well, when your picado always fails when speed goes up.[:D]

For people not liking flamenco, its not a good therapy




Ron.M -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 9:26:38)

I've got to feel in a good mood to really enjoy Flamenco in any form, so no, it's not something I'd listen to, or find comforting or therapeutic if I was in a down mood.
It probably still remains too much at a distance from me to be that personal.

Those times, I hear BB King in my head, not Flamenco.[:D]


cheers,

Ron




Argaith -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 9:56:56)

Flamenco may do the trick for us but surely not for those who are not into it.
I've got a mate he gets his fix out of Industrial Music!

Depends on what floats your boat.




changue -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 11:24:44)

I find this point very interesting. If we accept that depression can have its origins in badly 'digested' emotions then the release of these emotions should result in a benefit for the depressed individual. Good cante does it for me. For someone else, as has been pointed out already, it could be techno or opera or whatever. However, for me there is a primal and raw quality to the cante that distinguishes it from other art forms. My personal view is that the cante evolved as a means of psychological survival. There's a great line in Dominique Abel's film portrait of Agujetas where he says something like, 'whoever's had the most fatigas is best able to sing flamenco'. Vale!




annemarie -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 14:47:47)

Wow, thanks for the replies! It really is interesting to see what flamenco means for everyone.
Harry, I like what you said, 'a feeling of defiance', that's exactly what it is and what I love about it as well. And of course there are a million other ways to deal with stuff, such as techno and opera, or something non-musical, but it seems to me that flamenco offers a more complete package, because it's so complex and there's an entire life philosophy that comes with it. And like Changue says, there's something primal and original (and universal) about it. So if it happens to tickle your pickle, you're good for life :)

While flamenco (and especially good cante) offers relief for major issues of the heart and soul, at the same time (at least for me) the practice of it comes with its own set of insecurities and confrontations. Another therapeutic characteristic :)
So Ruphus, you think this applies especially to dancers? I like and agree with what you wrote about dancers not having to fake cheerfulness; what comes out is what comes out and what you see is what you get. This is also exactly why it is confrontational and scary sometimes, because there's nowhere to hide and to dance well means to give it your everything, out in the open.
But I also think singers especially need to open up and tap into their own emotions to perform well.
Is it true that guitarists hide behind their guitars? :)




edguerin -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 15:11:12)

My two cents worth (as a psychiatrist and practicing psychotherapist):

Therapy doesn't necessarily mean relief from depression (although most posts in this thread probably aren't about depression in it's clinical sense but rather about feeling "down"). There A LOT of other psychological problems that can and should be addressed with psychotherapy. And therapy can entail a worsening of symptoms and a deepening of sadness etc. before it - ideally - starts to help.

In Music-Therapy knowledge about music, being able to play an instrument, etc. can really be a hindrance. So flamenco may actually be helpful for people who aren't into it. I've sometimes daydreamed about implementing flamenco into therapy, but haven't really seriously done anything about that yet (maybe I should discuss this with the Music-Therapist at our hospital, but then he's into Argentinian Tango and accordeon...[:D])

As to my personal experience: most of the time I find flamenco a solace when I'm feeling down (especially cante)..




Pimientito -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 21 2011 16:00:56)

I think Flamenco means different things to different people. One thing is true though. Whether yopu are a singer, dancer , guitarist or percussionist, flamenco requires a lot of self discipline and dedication. You must be prepared to practice and incorporate it into your daily or weekly routine.

Personally I have found that is something helpful to have in my life. It is because it provides some structure, one has to make time to practise and its also a way to switch off. Its very difficult to have your head full of other thoughts when you are practising. Its nice to finish a practise routine and hear you have improved from begining to end, and feel your hands are warmed up. I even keep a guitar at work in case there is a slow day with some 10 minute gaps to fill.

A lot of people who do martial arts and Thai chi probably get something similar from their routine every day and I think it provides some kind of mental grounding and balence in the pursuit of perfection of your art. For me the daily "ritual" or warming up, exercises, repertoire and then learning new pieces is something that has carried me through some very difficult periods in my life and I think that is why it could be seen as therapeutic.




Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 22 2011 10:43:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: annemarie

So Ruphus, you think this applies especially to dancers? I like and agree with what you wrote about dancers not having to fake cheerfulness; what comes out is what comes out and what you see is what you get. This is also exactly why it is confrontational and scary sometimes, because there's nowhere to hide and to dance well means to give it your everything, out in the open.
But I also think singers especially need to open up and tap into their own emotions to perform well.
Is it true that guitarists hide behind their guitars? :)


The confrontational dance between female and male dancer seems of sense to me, with sight on daily life.
Unlike with other classical dances which emphasize perfect harmony, truth in life is that intimacy requires foregoing dispute. You can´t have true friendship by omitting conflicts. Yet, fair and constructive struggle produces understanding and appreciation of each other.
After all, best and rather lasting relationships seem to be those with no fear of confrontation, but trust in respectful clearance / strengthening common ground.

Can´t tell from personal experience, whether guitarists hide behind their instruments. For, as a stage-frightened myself who prefers the closet from stage, I performed only a few times before public ( except of one or two cases, feeling very uncomfortable, while people liked the gig ).
But from looking at performing guitarists one could think of them hiding indeed.
Maybe not so much accompanying / in groups playing flamenco guitarist, who often times appear rather relaxed, but more so with solo players / classical guitarists, who often times shun the audience, keeping their eyes either on the fretboard or to the ground. Some even resting their head on the upper bout as if wanting to crawl into the corpus. :O)



quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

And therapy can entail a worsening of symptoms and a deepening of sadness etc. before it - ideally - starts to help.


I recall a report on an international congress of psychatrists, from maybe twenty years or so ago. The consensus was that classical psycho analysis had never helped a single individual, but rather caused harm by uncovering traumata, without simultaneous support. The plea was to let it be alltogther.

What do you think of my conclusion that ways to actual help would exclusively be active methods like with interactive role playing, or better even transactional analysis, which provide simultaneous / autonomous cognition to the patient?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

Its very difficult to have your head full of other thoughts when you are practising.


For me, when only slightly down, practising helps distracting and at times even cheering up.
But when badly down best escape for me is to switch off awareness by going to bed early, though rather a nocturnal beast by nature.
Those will be the few moments when looking at the guitar won´t even trigger the desire to grab it.

Ruphus




edguerin -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 22 2011 12:25:42)

quote:

The consensus was that classical psycho analysis had never helped a single individual, but rather caused harm by uncovering traumata, without simultaneous support.


I wonder what kind of symposion that was. There's enough scientific evidence out there, that psychoanalysis and analytic techniques definitely help (when applied correctly of course).

quote:

What do you think of my conclusion that ways to actual help would exclusively be active methods

Active methods CAN help. But not exclusively. And, without wanting to get too technical, cognition alone, unfortunately, isn't the sinecure one often thinks (e.g. why can't people quit a bad habit, even though they know it's deleterious? Why don't self-help books work?)




keith -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 22 2011 12:38:56)

Edguerin--good point about delineating feeling down and clinical depression. For the past 17 years I have been a director of clinical and residential programs for individuals with a severe and persistent mental illness and for the past 10 years I have played flamenco guitar (average player at best). I can see flamenco dancing being a good adjunct to pharmacological therapy. Dancing is exercise which has been shown to be a good form of reducing clinical depression symptoms. Additionally, given the life span of a person with a severe and persistent mental illness is 20+ years less than average dancing would be a definite plus.

That said, one could make the case that learning and maintaining a level of achievement on the flamenco guitar could excerbate clinical depressive symptoms in that the guitar requires long hours of solitary work which may not be a good thing for someone suffering with clinical depression or someone with a social anxiety disorder. Overall though I would say flamenco and an SSRI would be a good combo.

Now if I can stop feeling down on those days when my tremelo sounds like a screeching owl.




Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 22 2011 13:50:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

I wonder what kind of symposion that was. There's enough scientific evidence out there, that psychoanalysis and analytic techniques definitely help (when applied correctly of course).


It was reported on in "Der Spiegel" during a series about Freud´s heritance, I think. Guess it to have occured.

Also from personal empirics: How often have I seen people coming from a passive therapy so enthusisastically ( typically trying to talk others into it, as compensational back up ), while apparently nothing really changed ( with them admitting themselves over time ).
Therapists willing to see their passive methods as succesfull might be tempted taking such patient´s temporary illusion for real. - After all they are vulnerably human themselves, hence despite academic demand at times worshipers and believers against entity / unwilling to accept failure and to head on to other shores.

Further: Never has there been such a mass epxeriment like with psychotherapy in the US ( when it was outright fashionable among middle and upper class to visit classical therapists and pay up to hundreds of thousands $ fees to often times outrageous skimmers over the course of years ).

With just a hypothetically minimal effect the outcome should have been evident, which it wasn´t.



quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin
Active methods CAN help. But not exclusively. And, without wanting to get too technical, cognition alone, unfortunately, isn't the sinecure one often thinks (e.g. why can't people quit a bad habit, even though they know it's deleterious? Why don't self-help books work?)


My claim is that it depends on the level of cognition.
The minute a person actually understands the trivial background of a mental irritation, it will dispappear simultaneously.
Again: Provided the causality is inherently / actually comprehended. - Which seems to be only possibly as an inner process / with active methods.
Accordingly, self-help books won´t work as they can´t subtitute autonomous realization.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

A lot of people who do martial arts and Thai chi probably get something similar from their routine every day and I think it provides some kind of mental grounding and balence in the pursuit of perfection of your art. For me the daily "ritual" or warming up, exercises, repertoire and then learning new pieces is something that has carried me through some very difficult periods in my life and I think that is why it could be seen as therapeutic.


Re-reading it, this one seems worth a thought.

I once went into martial arts for exactly that, seeking balanced state of mind.
It never occured, despite so many years; 4 of them even fulltime ( 1,5 years 30 hours per week, 2,5 years 40 h/w ).
Neither did it appear as if fellow budoka developed remarkably different from average.
People do get more self-confident, especially with realistic disciplines like Wing tsun, Muai thai or grappling, yet not necessarily calm or wise.

Tai chi is very different from martial arts. Eventhough once born from Chi sao, it has nothing to do with fighting, but is a form of meditation by physical means.

Meditation again undoubtedly affects temper and mind.

Ruphus




edguerin -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 22 2011 16:46:18)

quote:

Now if I can stop feeling down on those days when my tremelo sounds like a screeching owl.

Wow! I wish I could get mine to sound like that.[:D]




Adam -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 22 2011 17:04:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

quote:

Now if I can stop feeling down on those days when my tremelo sounds like a screeching owl.

Wow! I wish I could get mine to sound like that.[:D]


I think it has to do with the distortion you use on your amp [;)]




Estevan -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 22 2011 19:01:55)

quote:

Tai chi is very different from martial arts.


If you're doing it wrong.




Ruphus -> RE: Flamenco therapy... (Mar. 22 2011 21:24:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

quote:

Tai chi is very different from martial arts.


If you're doing it wrong.


Tell me more.

Ruphus




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