RE: A friendly place to live (Full Version)

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Kate -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 14:04:45)

There is a local joke about Granada which goes like this.

Jesus is wandering around Granada and says to his Dad, " God this place is the garden of Eden, the snowy mountains bring water to irrigate the plains, the sun shines on the harvest, the beautiful castle perched on the hill, you have created heaven on earth" And God replies " yes my son all that is true, but you haven't met the people yet."

Ruphus my husband is also a sound engineer and studio builder. He recently built a state of the art studio for a client here in Granada at a very cheap rate on the premise that he would be working there as a producer and would benefit from use of the studio. The client claimed to have run out of money and that no grant had been forthcoming from the town hall as he had hoped. My husband kindly agreed to finish the work, the final 3 months, and waive payment until the studio was bringing in customers. However when the studio was finished they said he was no longer welcome and refused to pay him. We sued them for the money, in a civil case, at which point they charged him with fraud and extortion, a criminal matter which if found guilty would carry a 6 year prison sentence. Fortunately the judge threw the case out, but they have appealed. We now wait another 6 months for the appeal to be heard. All of which means we cannot continue the civil case to recoup the money. Meanwhile we discover they did in fact get a grant of about 280,000 euros, which specified payment the final three months of wiring which my husband completed. You can see the studio he designed and built here, http://www.kbyoestudios.com/ foolishly boasting of the amazing design, expensive facilities and satisified customers while at the same time telling the judge that my husband had impeded their business as he had not finished the work.

This is what they call the mallafolla ( rough translation, bad ****) of Granada. It's a beautiful place to live but a tough, and at times impossible, place to do business.




Escribano -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 15:28:34)

Ouch Kate, that sucks!

I had a Granadino make an offer on my house last year. It was up for 180,000 Euros and we agreed on 160,000 after the usual haggling. After instructing my lawyer and sending through all the paperwork at my expense, he comes back saying he is connected to a banking family (aren't they all?) and they say that on paper it is only worth 120,000 and that is if I threw in my 1965 Mustang convertible sitting in the garage [;)]

I obviously refused, so he lowered his offer to 80,000 without the Mustang, which was never for sale anyway. Some negotiator.

I told him that unlike him, I had money and so would not be accepting his kind offer to rob me.

He has done this to a number of sellers in the Valley with more costly outcomes.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 16:23:36)

Kate.
I´m very sorry, but it all sounds very familiar. Fortunately I havent been in trouble myself but what you tell is going on everywhere.

Simon.
If you dont need to sell, then wait. The Spaniards are waiting like vultures to buy houses way to cheap from foreigners (mainly brits) who for some reason have left Spain. The economists believe that the value of private property will go down with around 10 - 15% during 2011 and the slowly recover.
80000 for your house in Restabal is completely farout and you should have bashed him with something heavy.

Spain is nice and spaniards so friendly on the surface. But reality is very different. Many people live here for a couple of years, dont realy get in contact with spanish reality, staying mainly with other foreigners (cheap wine, sunshine, paella, flamenco). But if/when they have to confront themselves with the other part of spanish culture, then they find out that things are very different than what they thought




Escribano -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 16:48:16)

quote:

Simon.
If you dont need to sell, then wait.


It's OK, I don't so I will [;)]




Escribano -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 17:38:04)

quote:

You can see the studio he designed and built here, http://www.kbyoestudios.com/


Ahh, it's in Padul that figures - what a dump, full of money-grabbing cocks and skanky 'disco' women [:'(]




NormanKliman -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 18:00:21)

quote:

This is what they call the mallafolla

The term is "mala follá" and people have interpreted it in different ways. The first and least accurate IMO is that it's similar to "mala leche," which refers to people who are generally too willing to see you suffer. The second, a bit more refined although inaccurate IMO, is said of someone who will invariably rain on your parade. For example: "Hey, that's a nice new car you've bought yourself! It's a pity that there were no other colors available." The third and most accurate IMO is a developed sense of unwillingness to help. For example, you go into a shop and say to the assistant that you want to buy a shirt. He or she looks up and nods and goes back to reading the newspaper. You then ask if the shop has any shirts and the assistant, without looking up from the paper, nods toward a corner and says, "Over there." There are all kinds of explanations behind all three definitions, but the only valid stereotype IMO is that people in eastern Andalusia are not as open and communicative toward strangers as in western Andalusia. In my experience, ill will, cunning ridicule and honed uncooperativeness in Spain have nothing to do with xenophobia as they're applied equally to foreigners, nationals and even locals, although there are always going to be closed-minded fools in all parts of the world.

quote:

The Spaniards are waiting like vultures to buy houses way to cheap from foreigners (mainly brits) who for some reason have left Spain.


"Waiting like vultures" is a most unfortunate metaphor, although maybe there's a common element of patience involved. With unemployment over 20 percent, many Spaniards are at the end of their collective ropes, now that they've received all of their alloted unemployment compensation. There are many families with no source of income on the horizon, and in many cases couples have had to sell the house and move in with their respective parents, sometimes dividing up the children between the two because the entire family won't fit in a single house. If Spaniards are waiting for anything, I think it's an even break in life.

quote:

Spain is nice and spaniards so friendly on the surface. But reality is very different. Many people live here for a couple of years, dont realy get in contact with spanish reality, staying mainly with other foreigners (cheap wine, sunshine, paella, flamenco). But if/when they have to confront themselves with the other part of spanish culture, then they find out that things are very different than what they thought.


I agree entirely, especially if you're saying that this outcome is limited to those who "dont realy get in contact with spanish reality," as you say. In my experience, the vast majority of foreigners in Spain live here only in physical terms and, among the few who do try to form a part of Spanish society, not all are cut out for it. It's very difficult.

Kate, I'm truly very sorry to hear about that but it's the way the legal system works, at least for those who have resources to prolong a legal battle. Honestly, I'm not trying to belittle your difficult situation, but there are far worse cases in Spain and other countries. You just have to be on your toes and wide awake all the time. My best defense in situations like that is not to mix friendship and business in any way at all. One of my best friends in Madrid--probably the most honest and decent person I've ever met--offered to sell me a used car. He's a mechanic and just happened to have a car for sale at a time when I was about to get rid of mine. He offered a very generous sale price but I insisted that I pay market price and that we consider it to be a sale between two strangers. Afterward, I had to take the car to a mechanic for a few minor repairs but I never thought of taking it to my friend's shop because I didn't want our friendship to be involved in any way at all. Conversely, when work associates try to involve friendship--and most importantly, a sense of guilt--in business, I usually respond with something like, "I must be misunderstanding you because I know that someone as professional as you would never try to make this look like some kind of favor that I owe you." :-) Hope it works out for you in the end.

This thread should be in the off-topic section.




Kate -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 19:06:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
Ahh, it's in Padul that figures - what a dump, full of money-grabbing cocks and skanky 'disco' women [:'(]


Yes and mafiosos ! The grant these people got was actually for agriculture, dont know how they managed to swing that !

When we first came to Granada we were told to beware the gitanos, that they would lie, cheat, rip you off etc however the reverse has been true, the only people who have ripped us off have been payos.

Norman I agree with you about mixing friendship and business, with these people it was all business though they kept telling us we were one big family. LOL I know in the long run we will see justice done here and get paid. They will have no choice eventually so all they can do is delay the inevitable. Meanwhile they have a super studio about which stupidly they know nothing !

We have never isolated ourselves from the Spanish and our many friends here are all horrified at what has happened. There are crooks everywhere not just Spain. I dont blame the country or the culture.




NormanKliman -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 20:07:27)

quote:

We have never isolated ourselves from the Spanish...


No, and I hope you didn't get the impression that I was implying something like that.[:)]




Richard Jernigan -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 3 2011 20:46:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I want to help rule out for you sirs any desire to ever live in Luling Texas.
Just in case that ever comes up for you. I endorse Austin even less, far less.



Texas may have somethng in common with Japan. When I lived in California my girlfriend had grown up in Tokyo until she was fourteen. Then her family moved to San Francisco. I was in my late forties, she was maybe twenty-two when we met. She was pretty, brillliantly quick witted, had a Masters in english literaturre from Berkeley, and spoke perfectly unaccented American English.

At first, one of her favorite topics was how much better things were in Japan than in America. Since I would have a guide and translator, I brought up the possibility of living in Japan. She was immediately against it.

I said, "I thought Japan was a great place to live."

She replied, "It is a great place to live...if you're Japanese."

So, maybe Texas is a great place to live...if you're a Texan.

But why are all the yankees (Texan for 'northerners') moving here?

RNJ




estebanana -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 0:59:26)

quote:

I said, "I thought Japan was a great place to live."

She replied, "It is a great place to live...if you're Japanese."

So, maybe Texas is a great place to live...if you're a Texan.

But why are all the yankees (Texan for 'northerners') moving here?


Ha ha,

I have a great old friend in Austin who is a writer guitarist and an oud player. He happens to be married to my step mom. That's why I added that thing in about Austin:) You might like one another. He's not flamenco, but he's a fantastic guitarist.

Ever been down to Luling? ;)




JieXian -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 4:57:39)

quote:

JieXian,

Thanks for the comment; It made me reconsider possible conditions in Malaysia.
But so far it looks as if the long-term trend there was towards encreasing religious dogma; no?


I would call it political wars using race and religion as a front. There really isn't much religious dogma in my opinion, usually the politicians will mention about "protecting Malay rights" and all that stuff.

But yes things seem to be getting worse especially with the release of their weapon, the novel, to stir things up before an election (I would suppose).

However, my French teacher who has been working here for 6 months or so and a Japanese lady, my classmate who has been working here for 7 years or so, said that they never felt any racial tension. They mentioned that after we told them about our situation in Malaysia as Chinese.

In contrast, my French teacher said that things in France were different, based on how her Korean colleague felt after the crisis. She said that the French blamed the foreigners for taking their jobs or something like that.

What I infer from that is the same as what I've said earlier, the problems are on a political level but among the people, there isn't much, although we all are aware of the unfairness, it's the politicians who are to be blamed. Of course many people are somewhat biased to their own race for certain things but that's perfectly normal and understandable.

Also, somehow we weren't badly hit by the crisis, I don't know maybe something else is going on but so far things aren't as bad as what I hear about in western countries.

Furthermore, most of the problems won't concern you much. For example, switching back to Malay in Science and Maths, awarding more scholarships to Malays etc. Religious stuff only affects Muslims and the worst is that you may be irritated by the call to prayers if you live near a mosque.

Oh but there's one thing: If you have a public listed company 33% of the shares must be held by a Malay. But you can always go around it and list it in Singapore.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 7:41:17)

quote:

"Waiting like vultures" is a most unfortunate metaphor, although maybe there's a common element of patience involved. With unemployment over 20 percent, many Spaniards are at the end of their collective ropes, now that they've received all of their alloted unemployment compensation. There are many families with no source of income on the horizon, and in many cases couples have had to sell the house and move in with their respective parents, sometimes dividing up the children between the two because the entire family won't fit in a single house. If Spaniards are waiting for anything, I think it's an even break in life.


Norman, I think you know very well that Spain is clearly devided into two parts. The 20% unemployed and the 30 % suffereing to get to the end of the day/week/ month go into one part. The rest are the rich ones, They are the vultures, the ones always waiting to exploit whatever in a legal or illegal way. So Spain is in crisis but have you noticed the amount of high end cars on the roads, enourmous illegal houses in the countryside (we talk about a million or more in Andalucia) etc. There´s a VERY big black market in Spain and some have a LOT of money. Its considered that more than 35% of the economy is illegal, black or whatever you might want to call it.

Its a very unhealthy society.




NormanKliman -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 7:59:43)

Hi Anders,

Yes, I agree. The economic crisis is affecting everyone, but it's gone from "the very rich and the poor" to "the rich and the very poor."

quote:

Its a very unhealthy society


Maybe in some ways, especially in the characteristics that it shares with its Mediterranean neighbors, but IMO it's very healthy in other ways. In any case, it's hard to generalize. The only thing I know is that the other half that you mention (the vultures) don't go to any of the parties that I go to, and I don't think I'd go to any of their parties.[:D]




michel -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 9:06:19)

interesting stories and opinions in this thread.
don’t want to cut it, just a few lines relating to the initial post. I live in the border triangle where france, switzerland and germany come together and it’s somehow OK, the clima is not to rough, you can find jobs, but everything is very organised and people are stressed and tense, lifecoasts are definitly high. if I could move somewhere else I’d consider the middle of france where I spend my holidays since years, precisely Corrèze, Dordogne, Lot et Cantal… “le bonheur est dans les prés” it’s a nice clima, not too much tourism, food and wine of course are beautiful like in Bourgogne! what else? nothing but forests and grassland and it's calm (wo fuchs und hase sich gute nacht sagen:-). I’m surprised how many english people live there, they are really easygoing and very friendly, and they are obviously accepted as a real part of french society (a bit in contrary to andalucia). But local french people tell me that many english people settle back to England and sell their houses, i think it's more for economical than for social reasons, they are hardly no jobs excepted a big marmelade company.
Other people mentioned Germany / Ruhrpott. my german family is from there (Essen) and I was very surprised the last time I went there, it’s all the opposite of a ugly postindustrial landscape, it’s a nice place with a real modern cultural groove, OK loud huge cities and traffic jams are always part of the game there. I think people who are retired have different criterias and a larger choice than people who have to earn money i. e. not living too far from the city that brings da money!




BarkellWH -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 14:42:22)

quote:

There really isn't much religious dogma in my opinion, usually the politicians will mention about "protecting Malay rights" and all that stuff.


The harder line Islamic culture is found on the East Coast of Malaysia, particularly the state of Kelantan and, to an extent, Trengganu. Unfortunately, this is also the area with the most beautiful coast line, along the South China Sea. Westerners are not much affected by racial tension in Kuala Lumpur and other towns along the West Coast, but it is not as beautiful along the Strait of Malacca. Nevertheless, No matter where one lives in Malaysia, there are always some great nature treks near at hand.

On the subject of the Muezzin's call to prayer, I always liked to hear it. It has a very haunting sound, with a hint of the Phrygian Scale.

Cheers,

Bill




Estevan -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 19:22:20)

quote:

On the subject of the Muezzin's call to prayer, I always liked to hear it. It has a very haunting sound, with a hint of the Phrygian Scale.


It's allright as long as it's at a comfortable distance. Not so great when it's a tape on a crappy sound system cranked up just across the street from your bedroom window before dawn in Java.

This reminds me of your earlier post:

quote:

The "Near East" is a rather old-fashioned term for what is known today as the "Middle East." Frankly, I prefer the term "Near East," as it conveys more accurately the geographic location of the countries it encompasses.


I prefer the even more old-fashioned term "Asia Minor", as it's also the key of many passages of flamenco music. [;)]




estebanana -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 21:40:36)

quote:

I prefer the even more old-fashioned term "Asia Minor", as it's also the key of many passages of flamenco music.


And then when you return to por medio it's called rephrygeration?




Estevan -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 4 2011 22:17:17)

Así es.




cathulu -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 1:55:23)

Friendly ain't good enough

- you will want good health care
- developed education system
- progressive social systems
- a trustworthy police and judicial system
- low corruption
- politically stable
- tolerant friendly people

Anything else ain't good enough. There are a few countries that meet this. Canada is one.

Good luck where ever you go.




BarkellWH -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 11:15:41)

quote:

quote:

On the subject of the Muezzin's call to prayer, I always liked to hear it. It has a very haunting sound, with a hint of the Phrygian Scale.



It's allright as long as it's at a comfortable distance. Not so great when it's a tape on a crappy sound system cranked up just across the street from your bedroom window before dawn in Java.


Estevan,

I take it you have lived in Java. Where were you living, in Jakarta? I lived in Indonesia for four years, assigned to the American Embassy in Jakarta from 1994-1998. Had the good fortune to witness history with the fall of Suharto in 1998. I also spent four years in Malaysia, assigned to the American Embassy in Kuala Lumpur. Having lived a total of eight years in the "Dunia Malayu," (or "Malay World," another old-fashioned term that I prefer), I certainly agree with you that the Muezzin's call to prayer, as haunting as it sounds with its hint of the phrygian scale, sounds a lot better at 6:00 PM in the evening than it does at 4:30 AM in the morning.

Cheers,

Bill




Ruphus -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 11:38:55)

Hi Kate,

I´m sorry to hear that story.

With a quick glance on the gear list on their site, with the Neumann mics, protools stuff, whilst Presonus etc. for the frontline; it looks a bit amateurish.
( Just as you´d promptly hear "Ferrari", if asking average enthusiast for best car brand.)
Then again, "Neumann" and "Protools" is what musicians, who usually have no clue of recording matters, love to hear while selecting studios.

So, chances are that this recording facility might not yield the most pristine mixes / that they hopefully go bankrupt.
But then again, from exchange of experience engineers´ community concluded that clients are vastly attracted by
# working mood at the facility
# ambience ( airy and sunny rooms, comfortable lounch, panorama windows, good catering etc.), which contribute to the first mentioned criteria.

Because of that you see studios that release muffled mixes, yet remain frequented by clients.
Distracted by unrelated criteria, despite lackings of the actual object, as we human beings so often are.

Fact is that real recording cracks manage to deliver spatial mixes yet in terrible rooms and with entry level gear, if must be. ( Really amazing what they can do, yet under humble conditions!) Whereas on the other hand, not so skilled people behind the mics and knobs for most keep producing muddy tracks no matter the recording gear and rooms. Tracking after all, is a really demanding subject.
Which makes me hope that the shabby guys who cheated on your husband shall run aground, and at best return, begging your husband to help them out.
-

What rooms is concerned: If the proportions are ideal, no angled surfaces should be needed.
Among the best sounding halls in the wolrd are famous antique buildings, which are just square, albeit of certain proportions.
It is a miracle how historical acoustic engineering still could not be reached / surpassed by todays specialisation. Obvious by the fact that yet many of contemporary, internationally reputated, and extraordinarily paid acousticians failed with the acoustics of countless public auditory halls and vast of major recording studios live- and mixing rooms.
-

Econimical crisis ought to be flying dorado for the rich, while damning for pedestrians.
-

The option of milking off agriculture subsidies is one of the reasons why the EU exists. The only true task in Brussels is slicing cakes and transforming tax money into private property. People who believed in the fable that the EU was needed to prevent wars among European countries and that the term "mafia" was reserved for old-fashioned gangs in Sicily, might think again.



quote:

One of my best friends in Madrid--probably the most honest and decent person I've ever met--offered to sell me a used car. He's a mechanic and just happened to have a car for sale at a time when I was about to get rid of mine. He offered a very generous sale price but I insisted that I pay market price and that we consider it to be a sale between two strangers. Afterward, I had to take the car to a mechanic for a few minor repairs but I never thought of taking it to my friend's shop because I didn't want our friendship to be involved in any way at all. Conversely, when work associates try to involve friendship--and most importantly, a sense of guilt--in business, I usually respond with something like, "I must be misunderstanding you because I know that someone as professional as you would never try to make this look like some kind of favor that I owe you."


I see the practical idea behind it, and such might had helped me preventing loss of altogether 1,7 mio € ( or more as of late; shall be finding out soon), but ...:
Isn´t it a perverted state of social life when friendships can´t bear material load anymore / with the obligating of keeping private relationships pecuniary sterile?
And aren´t business ethics way below dignity, considering times when reliable individuals would be sealing deals with a handshake?

I wished instead of prophylactical skills serious pondering on cultures at stake would be emerging. - Instead of the societal discount that is happening ( with the escalation of the internet scamming, German lawmakers e.g. decided to remission offense below 3000 € ). And many youngsters today havn´t seen surrounding of decency anymore; deeming indifferent / non-committal status quo as normal social condition.

( - A pondering which in fact seems to have started in a timid way, already. Some related books have been released lately on the German market, - and yours truely already typed the vast of one named "The criminal spirit" [ a synopsis on socio-economical and psychological background of the cruel phenomenon ], just that currently I can´t get myself to sitting down and finishing.

Back to here and now; what I had to learn over here is, that when people start flattering me I get suspicious. No that I really trusted the "we are family-thing" that Kate described above ( though at times believing sympathetic approach ), but it always accompanied the scams.
-

Nice to hear that strangers are welcomned in Mid-France.
In the past the French were notorious for being chauvinistic, and at least in Paris prices used to change the minute you showed the slightest foreign accent with your French speaking.

Just as ripping off Central / North Europeans in the South appeared to be common.
( Which was why I once quashed my plans of going to Italy and open a WT-school. After thinking it through, I envisioned that as a "tedesco" I could be broke before the school was opened.) What an irony to have been wary back then, only to go to out of all where I´m now years later.
-

I can´t stand Muezzin cacophonies. They present too much of the doctrins obtrusiveness.
And what musicality is concerned, any child that you give a microphone with a PA drowned in reverb will be doing better while experimenting with its voice; more complex, more versatile, more melodical.
-

I noted down your details on Malaysia, thank you guys!
-

Absolutely, Canada ought to be one of the places, yet with critical remarks that I have heard from Canadians about their homeland.

Still, a great place in so many aspects. Also Canada will be the economical emirats of the future, not only with exports of mineral oil, but before all coming exports of fresh water.
Also I suppose that Canada together with Central America could be one of the last worth-living refugess when the global countdown of perish has started.

What holds me back personally is for one the climate ( don´t like long winters / cold weather ) and the geopgraphical distance to Europe.
- Further, Canadian immigration office might neglect me and the humble funds I could show, anyway.

Around five years ago in Germany, while there was furor about certain locks that could be opened within seconds by burglars, German TV-reporters asked around among passengers in Canadian cities, whether they would be locking their apartment doors when leaving home.
Most answered with "no".

- Whereas where I am now, many apartment buildings in the capital have their windows grilled up to the third floor.
Comes to show you: the higher moralism / hypocricy and detouchment, the higher bars before windows.

Ruphus




Doitsujin -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 14:41:18)

quote:

I would be thankful for any of your hints / knowledge on India as residence.



checklist:

1. Buy a stock of toilet paper BEFORE you enter India.

2. And avoid touching the left hand of anyone there.

3. You should consider making an elephant driving license.

There you go.
[;)]




Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 5 2011 16:24:48)

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Richard Jernigan -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 18:02:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

We moved to Louisiana, USA. Since I am an engineer it is a good place to work. But I don't love living here.

The question of where to live and be happy is a tough one. I am also looking for the answer.


We lived in Baton Rouge for a couple of years. I taught at Louisiana State University. Moving from Argentina to Louisiana to escape corruption seems to me like jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

Being from Texas, I thought I knew what racism was. Then I lived in Louisiana...

I never had a bad meal in Baton Rouge. The little grocery store down the street was run by two brothers, retired railroad men who loved food.

There are many wonderful people in Louisiana of all the races, colors and cultures to be found there---and the usual few sons of bitches.

As tourists, Larisa and I spent a long weekend in New Orleans last September. We enjoyed ourselves immensely: the Royal Sonesta Hotel, Isabelle's Plantation Tour, the Swamp Tour, Galatoire's, Commander's Palace, strolling about the Vieux Carre in the morning when the streets were clean and the drunks still in bed....

RNJ




Richard Jernigan -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 18:13:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

quote:

On the subject of the Muezzin's call to prayer, I always liked to hear it. It has a very haunting sound, with a hint of the Phrygian Scale.


It's allright as long as it's at a comfortable distance. Not so great when it's a tape on a crappy sound system cranked up just across the street from your bedroom window before dawn in Java.



I spent a couple of nights at a nice hotel in Tretes, a mountain town in East Java. As in hotels throughout Java, but not Bali, there was an arrow on the ceiling pointing toward Mecca. There was a mosque about 400 meters up the side of the big mountain the hotel is on. At 4:30 AM the sound system cranked up. I asked my guide what the music was. He was staying elsewhere, but from my description said the chanting was probably prayers. It went on for at leas 15 minutes, maybe longer.

At first I was annoyed to be awakened, then I became fascinated by the singing. As a lover of the flamenco cante, I found similarities. The singer was fantastic, with very secure pitch. He would modulate microtonally, the key shifting by quarter tones, and after a long excursion, return to the original key with dramatic effect.

At breakfast a charming young Dutch couple invited me to sit at their table. They complained of the horrid caterwauling from the mosque in the middle of the night.

RNJ




Guest -> [Deleted] (Mar. 5 2011 19:48:11)

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edguerin -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 20:25:00)

quote:

Spain is nice and spaniards so friendly on the surface. But reality is very different

quote:

"It is a great place to live...if you're Japanese."


Isn't it that way everywhere? Of course WE (substitute: Brits, Americans, French, Danes, etc. etc. ) are friendly to foreigners and easy going...

Spaniards coming to this part of Germany on holiday would find friendly people, nice country-side, delicious wine. Living here would be different. Not being from here they'd find the locals reticent and taciturn, might even encounter racism and xenophobia. But this would probably happen to Bavarians moving here ...
I presume this is similar everywhere. Move within you own country, and you'll encounter prejudices and the likes. So I don't think this is a specifically Spanish phenomenon.




BarkellWH -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 20:49:25)

quote:

At first I was annoyed to be awakened, then I became fascinated by the singing. As a lover of the flamenco cante, I found similarities. The singer was fantastic, with very secure pitch. He would modulate microtonally, the key shifting by quarter tones, and after a long excursion, return to the original key with dramatic effect.


It does share similarities with flamenco cante, which, in my opinion, demonstrates how much of flamenco is derived from the Moorish period of Spanish history. Javanese (or any other Muslim, for that matter) would not refer to the call to prayer as singing, however, although it does sound like a chant. And the shifting quarter tones are what make it so haunting. What the Muezzin is calling out in Arabic (It is always in Arabic) is: La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rasul Allah (There is no god but God, Muhammad is the profit of God).

Although the Gitanos have laid claim to flamenco as their own, it is not something they "invented." In my opinion, they are the beneficiaries of various cultural strains--Moorish, Jewish, local Andalusian, and some Gitano--and happened to have been lucky enough to have migrated to Andalusia, where those strains all came together. They certainly did not bring it with them from India, their place of origin.

Cheers,

Bill




Anders Eliasson -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 21:18:01)

quote:


Isn't it that way everywhere? Of course WE (substitute: Brits, Americans, French, Danes, etc. etc. ) are friendly to foreigners and easy going...

Spaniards coming to this part of Germany on holiday would find friendly people, nice country-side, delicious wine. Living here would be different. Not being from here they'd find the locals reticent and taciturn, might even encounter racism and xenophobia. But this would probably happen to Bavarians moving here ...
I presume this is similar everywhere. Move within you own country, and you'll encounter prejudices and the likes. So I don't think this is a specifically Spanish phenomenon.


You are so right. I was actually waiting for you to chime in.[;)]




Anders Eliasson -> RE: A friendly place to live (Mar. 5 2011 21:20:12)

quote:

if I could move somewhere else I’d consider the middle of france where I spend my holidays since years, precisely Corrèze, Dordogne, Lot et Cantal… “le bonheur est dans les prés” it’s a nice clima, not too much tourism, food and wine of course are beautiful like in Bourgogne! what else?


Maybe we´ll meet there, I lived for a short time in Argentat in the late 80th and I´ve always wanted to move there




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