Responsibilities? (Full Version)

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flyeogh -> Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 9:57:28)

After much investigation, talking to many different people (including visiting several guitarreros), and decision making I have found the maker of my perfect flamenco guitar. Possibly interesting the decision had more to do with people than reputations.

But now some decisions: blanca or negra, pegs or machinehead (see Flamenco Luthiery for this one ‘ a fascinating and informative discussion). Purfling in some exotic wood, etc. And now to the point:

Are my choices impacting the Amazon rain forest? Can I choose sustainable materials? Is a blanca more planet friendly than a negra?

There are many companies, governments and organisations saying how they are resolving sustainability but equally hundreds of cases of corruption and misinformation

Any thoughts anyone?

Nigel [&:]



miguel -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 10:25:34)

Hi Niguel

quote:

blanca more planet friendly than a negra


depends, most Negras these days are made from INDIAN ROSEWOOD because its illegal to cut-down BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD. and if you were to buy a Brazilian Rosewood Negra then you would definetly Pay for it.

Also i think most brazilian Rosewood used is the stuff that they bought(and stored) before it became illegal.

(but personally i prefer a Blanca with pegs[;)])

regards
Miguel



ToddK -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 13:29:26)

Yes, i think Cypress would make more sense environmentally.

I actually live right down the road from Paul Reed Smith Guitars.

Paul is cranking out electric guitars with Brazilian Rosewood, Necks, Headstocks,
and fingerboards, like their's a neverending supply of the stuff.

Its completely insane, and completely wrong as far as im concerned.
Using Brazilian for a Concert guitar, in wich it actually has in impact
on the sound, is one thing.
But chopping it up into electric guitar Headstocks and Necks?
That is completely cosmetic, and the material used for a headstock
etc.... has absolutely no impact on the sound.
So he's basically chopping great wood up for nothing. Its a huge waste.
He even has the nerve to make Brazilian truss rod covers!!!
Are u f'ing kidding me!?!?

Even worse, these guitars are so overpriced, 99 percent of them dont
make it in to the hands of players. They end up under some Lawyer's bed.
Or in a display case.

I honestly dont see how Paul can sleep at night.

TK



Ron.M -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 14:08:04)

How about a completely Organic, Vegetarian Guitar where no bone or animal glue is used and the trees are grown replaceably and without fertilizers?
Might meet a niche market out there all you guitarreros...LOL!

cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 14:54:47)

No plants were harmed in the making of this guitar.



Guest -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 16:51:13)

So what have you got against plants???[:D]



Guest -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 16:54:37)

On second thoughts, since a tree is a plant, why not make a guitar from a tree?



Escribano -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 17:19:57)

quote:

Can I choose sustainable materials?


A guitar should be a strong candidate for renewable materials.

I would assume a combination of cypress, spruce, Spanish cedar (which is not from Spain) and an Indian rosewood is your most sustainable choice, but I have little solid evidence.

You would have to investigate each wood and specify the sources exactly - this could be a difficult task for yourself, the luthier and their suppliers.

CITES is a handy reference point as I am sure you are aware http://www.cites.org/

There are stocks of pre-CITES wood, but this is not an ethical choice. It was the cutting of these woods that led to them being endangered in the first place.

A suppler in Spain has just been prosecuted whilst claiming adherance to CITES.



Guest -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 12 2005 21:59:09)

quote:

A suppler in Spain has just been prosecuted whilst claiming adherance to CITES.


In fact 2 major suppliers, Madinter of Madrid and Barber of Valencia, have been prosecuted after a lengthy investigation by the Guardia Civil.

They sold, at a ver high price, a lot more Palo Santo Brazil than they had a licence for. This wood is now protected and should only leave the country with appropriate papers. That is why a Palo Santo Rio guitar will cost a lot more, even if it does not sound any better.

Escribano is right: there is no reason why a guitar should not be made from environmentally friendly wood.

I remember when the only way to catch salmon was with fishing flies made from exotic feathers from birds which are now protected. Yet the few salmon which remain can still be caught on flies made from quite ordinary feathers or a few hairs cast from your pet dog.

Suerte

Sean



Guest -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 13 2005 7:12:31)

Take a look at this site:
www.alliedlutherie.com

There are some articles regarding macassar ebony and Brazil rosewood. It seems to me that the Brazil they sell is absolutely OK to use. After a long discussion with myself, I bought some Brazil from them. It's very dry, stable and well cut. And I'm sure it'll sound very well.

Regarding the Brazil thing here in Spain, Maderas Barber got their wood back a short while ago. After being DNA tested it was said not to be Dalbhergia Nigra. They had sold it as Caviuna, so that was ok. Now what is not ok is all the builders and factories that have build with this wood and have sold it as Brazil rosewood.

Anders



miguel -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 13 2005 9:11:52)

quote:

Paul is cranking out electric guitars with Brazilian Rosewood, Necks, Headstocks,
and fingerboards, like their's a neverending supply of the stuff.


yeah i know a guy that owns a house with solid Brazilian Rosewood floors, stairs and furnishings(tables,chairs ect.) But this house was made about 70 years ago, before the bans.

regards
Miguel



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 13 2005 15:40:47)

Along similiar lines, have you seen the Cathedral in Sevilla? Tons and Tons of mahogany. I know mahogany is not considered premium wood, but it was raided to death by European despoilers too!



bailoro2000 -> [Deleted] (Mar. 14 2005 7:20:54)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 14 2005 9:21:04



flyeogh -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 8:31:42)

Many thanks to all the responses except the last one. I do think that conservation of the planet is a responsibility of all (including a minority like catholics). If I can play my very small part then so much the better. I am a bit concerned about Indian Rosewood. Is this truely sustainable? Anyway I have decided to go for a blanca and to ask my guitarrero (whi I trust on this one) to consider sustainability when selecting the woods for the purfling and other parts.

Nigel



flyeogh -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 9:27:18)

Jim, Many thanks for your sensitivity. In reality these subjects are very complex and any individual view needs to be discussed and understood in detail before any individual judgements or differences of opinion can be established. I´m sure that we agree on far more than we disagree. I´m sure also that we could agree that the cathedral of Seville is very beautiful and inspiring.

Hopefully within this foro our love of flamenco is sufficient for everyone, no matter how diverse their views, to enjoy and share. Nigel



bailoro2000 -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 9:41:56)

Done and dusted Nigel. No need for pisols at dawn[:D]

Just like you to note that I did express it as a personal opinion, not set in stone. Only comment I have is that it is the timber merchants who see things as pounds and dollars,
rather than those who create beauty, that are raping the planets resources. Maybe my views are a little biased having been raised in the timber trade; the creative side that is, not the wholesale supply of raw material. I grew up with a lifetime love of timber and was responsible for some small carving and painting in English cathedrals, hence my view.

Suerte and no bad feelings,

Jim.



Escribano -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 12:30:23)

quote:

I am a bit concerned about Indian Rosewood

I can't answer that but you can't make a fingerboard out of cypress or spruce so that leaves rosewood or ebony. What about maple? They use it on electric guitar fingerboards - like the Fender Strat? Is that sustainable, I wonder?

Interesting thread.



gerundino63 -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 13:14:40)

Hi Simon.

I only know that former blanca's where a lot made of maple in the past ( like violins, Cello etc. )
And the former golpe's where made out of maple too, so perhaps a revival of the maple?

It looks good!

Peter



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 14:03:14)

My friend, Alan, a stupendous violin player, plays a violin made of "carbon". I'm not sure what that means (isn't wood carbon too? and people?), but I think it means some sort of graphite or synthetic substances. It sounds good! It looks old and beat up and you would probably never guess it wasn't real. Maybe someday they'll come up with some fake Brazilian rosewood that sounds good. You never know nowadays.



Escribano -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 14:58:17)

Umm, and the Ovation steel string acoustic was made with a synthetic back and sides from the mid 70's I believe.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 15:15:46)

Yes, but it did sound good? (The answer is no, in english or spanish!)



Ron.M -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 15:43:50)

I don't know why this came into my head, but years ago when I was living in a "student" flat, the lady who lived downstairs told me that her husband had made a guitar for their daughter and would I mind dropping by to tune it properly and perhaps show their daughter a couple of chords.

So I dropped by and they produced the guitar.
She was very proud of her husband's workmanship.
He worked as an Engineer and had just made it in his spare time as a hobby project.
It wasn't too badly made actually, about the standard of a cheap factory guitar.

The only thing was that the fret spacing was the wrong way round, with the narrow spacing at the nut and getting wider towards the bridge LOL!

I was really embarrased and didn't know what to say when they asked me to play something. [:D][:D]

cheers

Ron



Escribano -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 16:11:59)

Whoops![:D]



bailoro2000 -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 14 2005 19:33:23)

quote:

The only thing was that the fret spacing was the wrong way round, with the narrow spacing at the nut and getting wider towards the bridge LOL!


Reminds me of an old cartoon showing a canoe on trestles with one prow pointing up wards and one downwards. Political correctness prevents me from saying more[:D]

Jim.



Guest -> RE: Responsibilities? (Mar. 15 2005 15:40:27)

I basically use 3 types of wood for the backs and sides of a guitar: Cypress, Indian Rosewood, and Brazil Rosewood. I'm also a very environment oriented person, and I'm not in the mood for using material exploiting the planet earth

Of the three woodtypes, I think that the Brazil Rosewood I have is the wood making the smallest impact on the ecosystem. It's cut from trunks, which where left 25 - 40 years ago when the Brazil government banned the cutting of rosewood. So these trunks were left, and you have to remove them in order to replant, so I actually find that this Brazil rosewood is a kind of recycled wood, and if there's anything in the world that is environmently correct, that's recycling.
The Indian Rosewood they cut, is from plantations, so it should be OK.
Cypress.... Well, It's getting difficult to find good cypress because there are few big trees left, but it can be replanted, so it cannot be said to be in danger.
I have some Madagascar Rosewood, and I will use it, but that's probably the worst, because they are cutting down the whole Island more or less. I bought it before I knew this.

Besides, in order to make a good spanish guitar, you have to use rosewood for the bridge because of it's low damping, and I'm not going to build a guitar with a non - rosewood bridge.

Anders



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