I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Full Version)

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Gimar Yestra -> I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 21 2011 23:45:48)

Hello everyone,

I got into flamenco guitar and flamenco music about 6 months ago... im totally hooked now:D
And as a beginning luthier Im dying to build my own flamenco, I've been building for about 5 years now, mostly electrics, 2 archtop guitars and currently working on my 2nd steelstring, I use mostly handtools, handplanes, chissels, gouches etc, so im a somewhat experienced with woodworking by hand :D

Im basically gathering as much info untill I feel I know enough info to get started, bending sides, joining wood, shaping neck, fretting etc wont be a problem, Ive done it quite a few times, but the actuall nylon stringed guitar features are totally new to me. I did research about flamenco guitars, so im aware of the action and bridge setup, lightly constructed tops, back and sides etc.

I did read a bunch of "flamenco build" threads but there is some stuff I dont fully understand yet.

when gluing the braces, they get pushed into the mold, but do you shape the braces to fit the mold, or do you realy press them in the mold to create a springy effect?

Ive read about flat tops, and about tops with +- 1,6 mm doming as a (I guess) standart (I believe someone got this info from a book and posted it in a building thread).

1.
Is it advised to build a flat or a domed top for a first flamenco?

2.
With a curved mold, where does the curve start, to my understanding its curved from the soundhole to the heelblock.
Is this correct?? and does the area between the neck and the soundhole stay completely flat? and the 2 crossgrain baces aswell? Is this correct, or is the entire top domed?

3.
Howmuch doming would be considered standard for the back. I domed my steelstring backs to +- 6 mm and about 7 mm when the humidity % was lower.

I assume its recommend using a plan, Ive seen some video'swith guitars made from a santos hernandez plan, they sounded great to me, though I'm fascinated by the gerundino sound, unfortunatly I cant find anything about gerundino design, bracing patterns etc. maybe someone here can give me some info?


I see that Anders Eliasson has a dvd for sale, would that dvd give a inside look at building a flamenco guitar?, tuning tops and backs etc, or is it more a documentary type dvd? It seems very interesting to me no matter what.

Thats about all I can think of at the moment. every input is highly appreciated!

thnx,
Gimar.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 22 2011 0:17:27)

The stuff you're asking about is very important and also hard to answer.
If you're going to use a plan it might tell you how much the top should be domed, but if the plan was drawn from an older instrument it's hard to tell how much dome was built into the guitar. The doming is part of the design of the top and it also affects the setup of the guitar which is the other main thing you should be worrying about.

I can tell you what I do for what it's worth.

My solera is dished out with the deepest part of the dish being where the bridge goes at about 1.6 mm. But my dish also extends up so that the lower harmonic bar is curved slightly. My upper harmonic bar is flat.
I also curve the bottom of the bridge a bit more than the top is domed so it pulls up a kind of secondary "cylinder" in the top.

I don't really understand your question about the bracing. Usually you just carve the braces as if they were flat.

My back is domed about 4 mm at the highest point and all the braces are curved. I also create some front-to-back arch by the way I slope down the sides with the highest part a little behind the waist.



Sean -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 22 2011 1:46:33)

The fan struts are flat and are pressed down like springs in a dished solera till the glue cures.



Gimar Yestra -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 22 2011 1:50:02)

thnx deteresa,

as of yet I don't have a plan in mind that I want to use.

harmnic bars, these are the bars that are above and below the soundhole running across the grain? I know what the fan braces are.
I'm not failiar with all these terms in english yet.

on a steelstring they curve the braces, and sortof bend the top over them to get the dome.
so do you curve the braces so they fit in your solera before gluing, or do you leave them flat and press them into the dome shaped solera when gluing. not sure how to explain this.


EDIT: nvm sean answered that part... THNK Sean!



Gimar Yestra -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 22 2011 21:40:11)

another question came to mind, I was reading this thread about solera specs http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=144559&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=solera&tmode=&smode=&s=#145130

Someone sayd the neck angle is set when glueing on the back. could someone clear this up a bit, exactly what is going on.

I have an idea what is going on, but I dont know how to properly explain in english, sorry for that...



TANúñez -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 22 2011 22:10:44)

quote:

do you leave them flat and press them into the dome shaped solera when gluing. not sure how to explain this.


Exactly. This braces are thinner than on a steel string so you can do this. On a steel string you curve them because they are too thick to be pressed in. The lower harmonic bar will also have to be curved though and not pressed as it is thicker. I leave my upper harmonic bar flat so it gives the top in this area a nice flat gluing service for the fingerboard extension.



Sean -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 22 2011 22:35:40)

The sides are thin and flex so the neck is not locked into any angle yet.
The back goes on last and the foot of the neck has a strong gluing surface to the back this holds firmly the necks angle.



ruso -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 23 2011 0:14:19)

Take a look at this.


http://www.crane.gr.jp/CRANE_etc/A009JoseRamirez/CRANE_JoseRamirez.pdf



Gimar Yestra -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 23 2011 0:20:19)

thanks for the help guys!



nhills -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 23 2011 0:49:27)

Unfortunately, a 1909 Jose Ramirez is not a suitable model for building a flamenco guitar.

His guitars were out-dated in 1909! A 1909 Manuel Ramirez would be a different story (he was in the main line from Torres to the modern guitar.)

Norman



Sean -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 23 2011 2:50:22)

That's not a guitar thats a ukelele on steroids lol. 613 scale length that guitar is tiny, even a Santos which is small by todays standards would look huge beside that. I like the guys site though, came across it years ago, one day I'll build me one of those old baroque guitars, I think it will make a pretty wall ornament.



Gimar Yestra -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Feb. 23 2011 12:05:07)

yeah 613 scale is realy short, to bad cuz it seems like a pretty sweet guitar just to have for fun.

It seems the only plans available are Santos Hernandez, Reyes and Barberos?



Gimar Yestra -> RE: I want to build a flamenco guitar!! need help (Apr. 12 2011 1:46:28)

ok 1 more question :D

lets say you would build a top with 1,5 mm doming, will the dome get higher once its strung up and under tension?

I couldnt find a clear answer, but I guess it is realy important for the guitar's setup when it comes to string to soundboard distance.



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