'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Full Version)

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britguy -> 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 21 2011 14:26:08)

Have just discovered the advantages of being able to use the thumb picking UP (backwards) as well as down!

I find it makes a much cleaner finish to the C - Bflat - A ending on the A string in typical Seguiriyas falsetas, being able to play the C with a downstroke, the Bflat with an upstroke and the A with a downstroke. But I'm having problems with consistency. I often miss an upstroke. . .

I wonder how many others use this 'UP and DOWN' thumbing technique, and if they have any advice how to improve the consistency and timing. Is it better to move the whole right hand - keeping the thumb rigid, or just waggle the thumb, or what?

Interested to hear other views on this?



Elie -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 21 2011 18:21:43)

I started to use this short time ago, well I found it as a practice on Jason's site .. mainly it is to improve alzapua .. but it's cool to play around with it .. it gives solid eastern sound like the oud or qanon
just use the wrist as u use it in alzapua with some thumb movements



Ron.M -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 21 2011 20:09:07)

Hi britguy,

I've had my suspicions about this for a while.

Although you don't hear it too often, some guitarists I've heard play double single-note thumbstrokes at super speed that is just impossible to do with two downstrokes IMO.

cheers,

Ron



Stu -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 22 2011 1:25:53)

yeah ive used this a tiny bit, but forget about it. i must try to use this more....nunez does it in his dvd

also ron, I thought about an old comment/observation of yours yesterday... i remember something about you asking about tech with "a" upstroke ...yesterday i had workshop with guy called jesus alvarez from jerez and he showed us the rasgueado
a (down), m (down) i (down) a (up) m (up) i (up) dunno if you use that one

think i may have heard moraito use it before but never sen it transcribed anywhere. sounds great i think.. just not when i do it...yet[:D]



Andy Culpepper -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 22 2011 1:36:18)

very common in Sevilla-Utrera-Lebrija style playing (Diego del Gastor etc)
I think almost all players use it to some extent
You can treat it like alzapua basically



Kevin James Shanahan -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 22 2011 4:01:42)

Check out double thumb technique on bass , heaps on youtube[;)],what fruit are you farming britguy?



Ruphus -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 22 2011 11:14:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

....nunez does it in his dvd


And he tuts the propelling movement to come from the wrist.

Useful anyway, seeing that movements should be allocated to bigger / routing limbs whenever possible.
The farther up the body, the better.

Or to say it the other way around: The more solitary thumb movement the more one will be tensening up his hand.

Ruphus



britguy -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 22 2011 13:41:47)

quote:

what fruit are you farming britguy?

Apples ( 5-6 varieties) European pears ( 3-4) but my speciality is Asian Pears (12). I cross-graft them to Eurpoean understock. They grow well on my land, but they need lots of water (luckily I'm on the Lake). The local gourmet restaurants love 'em. Sold everything last year, but I'll never get rich growing fruit. . .

And farming work plays hell with the fingernails. . . .



n85ae -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 22 2011 14:15:56)

Upstrokes with the thumb should be required learning. They aren't difficult with
practice, and they really help play certain things. In any case it's just single note
alzapua so it really helps improve this technique. If you're thumb is not too well
developed it may take some time to get it though.

Many, many techniques I could not play 5 years ago, are simple now. So just
keep practicing, some times the muscles need to be built up first, then magically
you just start being able to do things. :)

Jeff



eg.czerny -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 22 2011 17:47:16)

I use the upstroke thumb a lot. For me it is mostly to make up for a lack of speed using only the down stroke. I also often use it where a pull off could be used. To me it feels very natural and I don't think about it.
I once asked Alain Faucher if it would be appropriate to use the upstroke in one of his transcriptions (a Paco Pena piece) even though he did not indicate an upstroke. His reply was that other than a little use in a Siguiriya it was seldom used. Not percussive enough. He suggested I work on scales using the down stroke to increase my speed. Did that, got better but still use the upstroke. I guess I would rather play flamenco with questionable technique than not to play flamenco at all.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 22 2011 20:36:15)

quote:

Although you don't hear it too often, some guitarists I've heard play double single-note thumbstrokes at super speed that is just impossible to do with two downstrokes IMO.


Paco Peña does this quite a bit, e.g on Bulerías Cortas at 0'42".



Flamencoblues -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 23 2011 2:17:10)

Sabicas uses the technique in Bronce gitano.



Ruphus -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 23 2011 8:19:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

Paco Peña does this quite a bit, e.g on Bulerías Cortas at 0'42".


De Lucia et al just as well.
Actually I am surprised of the notion in this thread that a flamenco player could be doing without it.

Ruphus



Adam -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 23 2011 10:53:22)

And Gerardo on one of the falsetas from El Gallo Azul (you can see it in the Encuentro video).

Just to throw in my 2 cents [:D]



britguy -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 23 2011 14:06:13)

quote:

"he showed us the rasgueado
a (down), m (down) i (down) a (up) m (up) i (up) dunno if you use that one "

Never heard of this rasgueado - what form(s) is it used in; soleares, alegrias, or what?



Pimientito -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 23 2011 14:18:15)

Lots of players use this technique. Gerardo uses upstrokes all over the place not just in El gallo azul. You can think of it as an alzapua on one string.
Diego Morao is another player who puts them in lots of situations. He was showing us a falsteta last year slowly with downstrokes but when he played it fast he was putting upstrokes in automatically. When I pointed this out he said he thought it was fairly obvious you had to do that which is why he didnt really explain it.
(I wanted to say that i didnt think there was anything obvious about his technique at all but decided it might be better to shut up at that point :D)
I think a lot of good players do this so naturally that they dont analyse the technique when it comes to teaching it and so these subtle elements get lost.



ralexander -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 23 2011 14:47:59)

quote:

I think a lot of good players do this so naturally that they dont analyse the technique when it comes to teaching it and so these subtle elements get lost.


so true, I've seen this many times.

Jeronimo Maya is another who uses it in a kind of machine gun alzapua



Kevin James Shanahan -> RE: 'Upstrokes' with the thumb? (Feb. 23 2011 20:55:34)

Hey britguy , I use that technique , I put my thumb on the second string and play it on the first string , gets a nice tremolo type of effect . or playing thirds put your thumb on the third string .



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