Sycamore v Cypress (Full Version)

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mark74 -> Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 9 2011 20:07:26)

Some guitar manufacturers claim that sycamore is better than cypress....that its brighter and more expensive

Any opinions from you experts?

Sorry if this has been posted before



Sean -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 9 2011 21:25:00)

It gets no respect here in North America, one of its nicknames is actually common wood. I find its used more on the cheapest low end factory made flamenco guitars, Cypress for me is a much more expensive wood.
I cannot comment on its sound as none of the big builders use it in high end guitars that I know of.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 10 2011 0:38:55)

In England the name sycamore is used for a variety of maple, so this can be confusing too.



estebanana -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 10 2011 2:41:52)

English Sycamore, is like Jeff said a Maple. It's very light and supple and is a great tone wood. I would make a flamenco with English Sycamore in a heartbeat. In fact I just used a stick of it for a lateral brace in a classical guitar I'm building. It's fantastic, not to be confused with true Sycamore.

I would also not hesitate to build a flamenco guitar with any wood I liked sycamore or otherwise. It's not about one wood vs. another wood, it's about exploring what each wood has to offer. It's closed minded to say only Spanish Cypress makes good flamenco guitars. And there are pieces of Sycamore which when tapped and prodded will be better suited to make a guitar than some Cypress.

If an independent luthier pics woods carefully they can use experience and judgment and select a good back/ sides set of a species not usually associated with flamenco guitars. The problem arises when commercially made guitars are made with other woods and the reason for using them might be more about budget than picking a quality set of wood.

We all know and love Cypress, but there are other woods which if you have a good guitar maker and keep an open mind will make a dry flamenco sounding guitar. The issue is really who is selecting the wood and can they use experience to make it speak.

A short list of alternate woods that make killer flamenco guitars:

Oregon Mrytle
Black Acacia
Port Orford Cedar
English Sycamore

And of course tried & true German or Balkan Maple.

Many of the woods that are neither pure blonde or pure dark, like Black Acacia or Oregon Myrtle make a guitar that can be truly half way between a negra and a blanca. Check it out.



at_leo_87 -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 10 2011 4:51:33)

my old guitar had sycamore back and sides. although it was laminated. it looked pretty and didnt sound bad.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 10 2011 8:05:49)

The problem with using popular names like sycamore, english sycamore etc, is that we dont know what we are talking about. Whats the scientifical name?
Acer Pseudoplatanus??? European maple which have been used in instrument making for centuries. Its the only wood being used for back and sides on instruments of the violin family.

Nice tonewood. Nice wood to work. Very clean. I wouldnt call it better than cypress. Its just different.



Sean -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 2:16:51)

Acer Pseudoplantanus, basically translates to maple false sycamore.
Sycamore is plantanus, although it could probably be made into great sounding guitar like a number of other alternative woods it has the stigma of being associated with cheap mass produced factory crap.



estebanana -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 3:26:23)

quote:

Acer Pseudoplantanus, basically translates to maple false sycamore.
Sycamore is plantanus, although it could probably be made into great sounding guitar like a number of other alternative woods it has the stigma of being associated with cheap mass produced factory crap.


Good wood is good wood and bad wood is bad wood. It does not matter what species it is or what people think of it.

Part of the job of responsible luthiers is to dispel or correct bad anecdotal wisdom and bring truth to a discussion about materials. If a wood has been stigmatized you have to think about how it happened and why.

The truth is if a wood makes a good guitar, it should be utilized and the public will have to unlearn undeserved stigmas on certain species. A great example is that Brazilian Rosewood is not the only wood that makes great guitars, but for many years, until it's scarcity caused luthiers to look too other species, it was held up as a panacea of cellulose fibers. Now we find that there are many woods which make fantastic guitars and the research was done by intrepid guitar makers who experimented.

The stigma is driven by mass production guitar making and I'll tell another truth, there is plenty of Spanish Cypress being subjected to massacre, then brutalized and horribly butchered by factory guitar making processes. There are more horrid crimes against wood being perpetrated on Cypress than any other wood used to make flamenco guitars.

If the only the Geneva Conventions could protect Spanish Cypress from the Butcher of Valencia or The Assassin of Nagoya.



mark74 -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 3:46:14)

What about the cypress used in the low end Cordoba guitars?

Ive heard mixed things...



estebanana -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 4:05:18)

My friend, it's not the wood, it's how you use it that counts. ( that's what she said)

I was standing outside a famous restaurant once in Berkeley CA. The chef was out there too taking a break. Some star struck foodie asked this famous chef about which knives he should buy. The Chef said, well go down to the Japanese hardware store on San Pablo Ave. and look in the knife bin. Pick up a knife you like that will cut vegetables and meat without bones and buy it. Then take it home and use it.

So if you are looking for a guitar, pick the guitar YOU like and then play it. The chef was correct, you don't need to worry about whether the knife is German or Japanese at this point, you need to find a blade (guitar)you feel good about and play it.

Picking a guitar is a life long journey and you learn about wood and other things through trial and error along the way. I've heard some pretty darned serviceable guitars made of plywood and some made with exotic hardwoods that sounded very poorly. The important thing to develop in your guitar selection is your ear. Use your ear first then look at the wood.

I've dissed Cordobas before, but hey if you find one that sounds ok to you then get it. There is worse and there is better than Cordoba. If you find a guitar you like made of anything, even Sycamore, and structurally the guitar checks out then get it. Ain't no big deal.

Don't believe what you read from manufactures pushing a guitar product, they will tell you anything about wood, usually bullcrap. Cultivate your ears and trust yourself based on that.



estebanana -> [Deleted] (Feb. 11 2011 4:09:09)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 11 2011 15:29:10



mark74 -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 5:54:22)

I think maybe the reason the low end Cordobas and the Yamaha dont sound so great to me is that they are laminates and not solid wood....or maybe Im starting another discussion

I suppose a laminate utilizing plywood can sound reasonable, but it seems hard to beat solid cypress or rosewood/palo escrito although I suppose its possible to have good sounding guitar with decent sycmamore if Im understanding things correctly

Thanks for your answers btw



mark74 -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 5:58:48)

Luthiers have been quite honest and generous with their time and information in my experience....its the large chain stores and even worse the internet advertisers thats the problem

It would be nice if there was a lot less hyperbole and just honest straightforward information....that would build trust....but in America salesmanship is considered better than expertise



mark74 -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 6:02:07)

Yeah maybe thats why the Rodriguez c3f sounds a little dull to me, because its a laminate



at_leo_87 -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 14:32:16)

quote:

Yeah maybe thats why the Rodriguez c3f sounds a little dull to me, because its a laminate


it also had a really thick lacquer finish.



Graham_B -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 14:43:58)

quote:

it also had a really thick lacquer finish.


Louis_B's C3F soundboard is nearly 4mm thick at the soundhole.
And no, that doesn't include the reinforcement(!!)



Morante -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 11 2011 16:20:30)

http://www.rafaellopezehijo.com/guitarras.htm



prd1 -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 12 2011 1:29:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

My friend, it's not the wood, it's how you use it that counts. ( that's what she said)

I was standing outside a famous restaurant once in Berkeley CA. The chef was out there too taking a break. Some star struck foodie asked this famous chef about which knives he should buy. The Chef said, well go down to the Japanese hardware store on San Pablo Ave. and look in the knife bin. Pick up a knife you like that will cut vegetables and meat without bones and buy it. Then take it home and use it.

So if you are looking for a guitar, pick the guitar YOU like and then play it. The chef was correct, you don't need to worry about whether the knife is German or Japanese at this point, you need to find a blade (guitar)you feel good about and play it.

Picking a guitar is a life long journey and you learn about wood and other things through trial and error along the way. I've heard some pretty darned serviceable guitars made of plywood and some made with exotic hardwoods that sounded very poorly. The important thing to develop in your guitar selection is your ear. Use your ear first then look at the wood.

I've dissed Cordobas before, but hey if you find one that sounds ok to you then get it. There is worse and there is better than Cordoba. If you find a guitar you like made of anything, even Sycamore, and structurally the guitar checks out then get it. Ain't no big deal.

Don't believe what you read from manufactures pushing a guitar product, they will tell you anything about wood, usually bullcrap. Cultivate your ears and trust yourself based on that.


...I agree - but it's nice to stick you nose into a cypress guitar even if it's 20 years old.



mark74 -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 12 2011 1:38:52)

You made it sound pretty good, I saw your clips from when you selling it, but you were way better than that guitar.

Hope the new Navarro is meeting your abilities



estebanana -> RE: Sycamore v Cypress (Feb. 12 2011 1:43:06)

quote:

..I agree - but it's nice to stick you nose into a cypress guitar even if it's 20 years old.


That's true.......cultivated nose.



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