Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Full Version)

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oregon47 -> Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 2 2011 2:51:39)

I am planning my fourth guitar build, which will be a german spruce/honduran rosewood flamenco negra. I have not found much information or a plan for building the guitar. I have built a blanca using the Reyes plan and it turned out good, but wonder if it is the right plan for a negra. Would really appreciate any suggestions.
Thanks in advance for your advise.
Tim



Sean -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 2 2011 5:35:05)

If that plan worked well for you in the past it should work equally as well in a negra. You're better off sticking to what works, if you want to experiment with a new plan do it with much cheaper wood.
It's much better learning what doesn't work well for you when it costs so much less.
I've built off the Reyes plan before and although I may revisit it someday in the future I'm not sold it's a good fit for my tastes so my recommendation is completely unbiased.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 2 2011 8:24:56)

I cant se why the Reyes plan shouldnt work on a negra. It all depends on what you want.
I wouldnt expect it to be a dry percussive sound aka Paco and his conde, but more of a singy voice. good sustain and harmonics. Maybe quite classical or crossover.



oregon47 -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 2 2011 16:38:16)

Sean I actually chose the Reyes plan because of all the information I found about it on this and other sites. Even after playing it for a year I am not sure it fits my taste as a blanca either, but after what Anders said about "classical or crossover" I might like it as a negra. That is the kind of guitar I hope to end up with - a crossover that leans more toward flamenco than classical. Guess if I said that in the beginning it would have helped.

What made me start thinking twice about using the Reyes plan was seeing the picture of the Devoe bracing on this site. When I looked around and found other negra bracing patterns they all seemed similar. Then again, they all looked Torres or Santos, so that shouldn't be a surprise.

Thanks for the replies. Hopefully I will hear more from players and builders, because there just doesn't seem to be much flamenco negra specific information out there.
Tim



Stephen Eden -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 2 2011 18:52:43)

It all depends really on how you build and the wood you use. Most of the simple 7 fan systems can be used to build classical or flamenco. The soundboard thickness bar height and thickness can all play there role in changing the sound signicantly. The thickness of the back and sides will also play a big role in the way the instrument reacts. Other things such as the height of the strings from the sound board will also make a difference in sound and attack.



Sean -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 2 2011 21:56:05)

Yes it's more to do with the way the wood is worked, for instance Domingo Esteso built his classical guitars with the same seven fan pattern as Santos used for his flamenco guitars, 7 fans no closing bars. The same pattern yet no one would ever confuse an Esteso classical with a flamenco guitar.



estebanana -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 3 2011 7:31:38)

I'm building a negra right now and while I can't say I'm an expert at making them sound this way or that way. I have settled into being able to make my negras have a voice that is quite dry and growly.

I usually start with a fan pattern that is more parallel rather than fanned more diagonally. The vanishing point for the fans is around the 7th fret. Five fans, and cutoff fans at a steep angle. And I glue the bridge on by slightly springing the top up into it and make the bridge wings a bit on the thin side, with a low tie block and saddle mound. Often scallop the ends of the lateral brace under the sound hole.


The key I think for me has been to make the fans just enough out of being lined up with the long grain so that they cross the grain at a slight oblique angle, enough to keep them from being prone to cracking along the grain. That's about where the 7th fret vanishing point places the fans. You can even reverse angle the two inner fans if you want. This kind of fan pattern lets the top rock back and forth along the axis of the saddle. Like the area of top between the outer edge of the bridge wing and the edge of the lower bout adjacent the bridge wing get activated easily because a more extreme diagonal fan bracing pattern allows for less of the saddle axis rocking. ( generally speaking)

I think a negra needs all the help it can get to sound more dry and raspy, which is what I'm looking for most of the time. This fan pattern in combination with a light bridge with the top pushed ever so slightly up into the bridge seems to do the trick. You might even get something resembling a Conde' sound that way. (heaven forbid)

But since I'm a slacker douchebag who has pissed off all respectable chaps you can take my semi-solicited counsel with a hopper of salt. Remember, free advice is worth what you pay for it.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 3 2011 10:44:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oregon47


What made me start thinking twice about using the Reyes plan was seeing the picture of the Devoe bracing on this site. When I looked around and found other negra bracing patterns they all seemed similar. Then again, they all looked Torres or Santos, so that shouldn't be a surprise.




One way to control a flamenco articulation is the way fan braces are tapered and shaped. This goes for the Santos style as well as Reyes. The control for the Reyes style on that particular plan is managed by the braces that effect the third and 6th strings; the 3rd brace in from the outside treble and the outside bass fan, which are tapered down a bit toward the sound hole. This causes a snapping sensation, with the sensation dropping off with the 3rd and 6th strings. I consider this to be more of a finishing touch with the understanding that top thickness graduation is necessary for the over-all function in connection with the finishing touch. What the plan show us is that many of the old masters used slight adjustments on their fan braces that were so microscopic that it was next to impossible to detect what they were doing to adjust sound and articulation.

This is considered on the Brune' plan of the 1912 Ramirez, with the outside fan braces shaved thinner in height. So, you might want to consider that the woods used can easily be made to be compliant once you get familiar with how to adjust sound and articulation. I used fence post material to build a guitar in 1974 and it was a great flamenco sound.



oregon47 -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 3 2011 16:08:53)

Mr. Blackshear,
I used the plan you produced for my last flamenco guitar. It was the availability of the little insights like the one you just posted that made me choose it. I think you may have solved the only issue (other than amatuerish wood workmanship) that kind of bugs me with that build, which is the G string. I may try and do some work on that brace. I have a science background, so I do understand the issues of geometry of the guitar, how wood density and top deflection effect (or is it affect) sound, and I am starting to understand the bracing issues. What I really should do is go and get some training from a local luthier with experience and knowledge on the caliber of yours. If possible.

Mr. Faulk,
I have found many of your posts insightful and entertaining, this one included. Thanks for the advise. I am going to have to draw that one up to get a picture of what you are doing.

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far. Great information. This guitar building stuff can really cut into the playing time. I can see that it is a life long journey with no end to the amount of experimentation one could do.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 3 2011 17:32:50)

quote:

I think you may have solved the only issue (other than amatuerish wood workmanship) that kind of bugs me with that build, which is the G string.


I have built a 1968 Conde style Blanca and the brace that controls the G-string is cut about 1/4" short at the sound hole area. This will also effect the 3rd string. Also, I copied a 50's Conde and noticed that the fan brace was shortened about an inch from its top. This not only causes the 3rd string to drop off a little, but activates a bell like quality in the mid range. It gets some very bell like sound from the 7th position on second and third frets, with a capo.

There are other ways to manage this tonal quality but I've found that the old masters seemed to adjust certain elements inside the top, whether before closing the box are perhaps working a little through the sound hole. A very close friend of mine who is long time friends with Arcangel Fernandez, used to watch him work through the sound hole to do small final adjustments.

This is what I've been exploring for the past 30 years. It's fairly easy to measure the box and its component parts but micro-sizing with final adjustments takes a lot of intuitive skill learned through years of practice and hair pulling. I have taught this system to other builders but not everyone has the skill for it, and then others take right to it like a duck in water.



estebanana -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 3 2011 20:41:07)

Oh yes little ducklings, make sure you preen your feathers daily and keep them oily so BS rolls off your back when you swim.

Joder, I've never heard such bombast!



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 4 2011 7:54:14)

quote:

Joder, I've never heard such bombast!


Its because you dont fine tune your guitars rasping the braces with a bit of salt on your fingertips through the soundhole. Thats what them jolly ole masters did old sport.[:D]



estebanana -> RE: Plan for Flamenco Negra build (Feb. 5 2011 1:19:32)

quote:


Its because you dont fine tune your guitars rasping the braces with a bit of salt on your fingertips through the soundhole.


That makes me hungry. I always thought he was rubbing salt on the fan brace to season it because he was going to pull it out and use it to poke meat on it and make shish-kebob.



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