Best tool for filing saddle? (Full Version)

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XXX -> Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 26 2011 7:59:47)

The last time I prepared a bone it took me alot of time to file away much material, for example the height. I used a sandpaper with a grid that is usually used to file metal, and it still took alot of time. So should I use a different tool?
And what do you use to file down the "holes" in which the strings lye?




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 26 2011 15:58:05)

None of my guitars have "holes" or grooves where the strings cross the saddle.

I believe a standard metal file, or files of different grades are commonly used for shaping the bone. The bone is held in a vise, and the file is used with both hands in the technique often used in metal working. The fourth one from the bottom in this photo looks about right for rough shaping.

http://tinyurl.com/4kj3vfk

I'm no luthier, so I'm sure the experts will have better advice. This is mostly an excuse to tell the following story.

I went to pick up a guitar that I had ordered for a friend from the Mexico City luthier Juan Pimentel. The action was a little higher than my friend liked.

"Maestro, my friend likes the the 1st string to be two American centavos above the 12th fret."

"Do you have two American centavos?"

"Here you are."

He placed the pennies under the string, then handed the guitar to a helper to be unstrung. He popped the saddle out of the unstrung guitar, held it at eye level and made a mark with a ballpoint pen. Then he stepped over to a horizontal belt sander. Zzzzt! he sanded the bone down to the mark, popped it back into the bridge, and handed the guitar back to the helper to be restrung. The helper handed the restrung guitar to Pimentel, who handed it to me without even glancing at it.

I measured the action with the two pennies. It was exactly, precisely as I had requested.

RNJ




Ruphus -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 26 2011 18:56:08)

For a saddles contacting surface you want a base as plane and rectangular as possible.
Approaching with a file should not be the best way, especially if you are not too routined with filing.
Better take a nice flat sheet of 80 sandpaper and put it on a table, then slide with the bone over it back and forth. That way control can be maintained easier.
Watch out to hold the saddle straight up and to press down evenly ( holding it centered ) with only little pressure.

For working on other surfaces / rounding up edges or trenches of saddles and nuts use fine grained sandpaper like 800.
But be cautious with the saddles upper side. Taking away off the edge that points towards soundhole will encrease scale length and effect intonation.

Unlike with nuts there are no grooves needed for saddles.
And if you filed them in they could again effect intonation, each time depending on the horizontal angle of the trench.
But why should you be wanting grooves in a saddle anyway.

Ruphus




at_leo_87 -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 26 2011 19:13:10)

i used a belt sander and some heavy ass duty gloves. dont file your nails or fingers away by accident. [;)][:D]




Ron.M -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 26 2011 19:51:20)

quote:

Better take a nice flat sheet of 80 sandpaper and put it on a table, then slide with the bone over it back and forth. That way control can be maintained easier.


I certainly wouldn't recommend that for anyone who hasn't done it before...that's just sanding "blind" and hoping for the best IMO.
Most folk don't apply even pressure and end up with bumps and high spots or rounding at the ends.

Anytime I've done it, I've marked the bone with a scriber (groove filled with pencil graphite), clamped it into a small vice with protectors....and filed to the line with a proper finishing file.
(File forwards in one even stroke...never backwards or "rub" the file on the work.)

I've tried the sandpaper way and it's a real hit and miss and "oh well..I suppose that'll do" affair...
Or you try to even out the bumps and eventually end up with a saddle half the height you'd intended. [:D]

cheers,

Ron




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 26 2011 19:51:52)

The story is that at the Purdey and Foredom gun makers in London, new apprentices were given a piece of steel, a file and a micrometer. They were told to make a one-inch cube. My father's Purdey 12-gauge, now re-stocked by the Purdey shop to fit my son, reflects the hand craftsmanship attained by the master gunsmiths.

Of course I never remotely approached such a level, but it is not at all difficult to learn to file flat and square. In my high school metal shop class most people did it with just a little practice.

Once you learn to make a straight saddle, you might like to experiment with one individually compensated, so the strings intentionally have slightly different lengths for correct intonation of the particular brand and type of string used.

RNJ




Ron.M -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 26 2011 19:59:49)

quote:

The story is that at the Purdy and Foredom gun makers in London, new apprentices were given a piece of steel, a file and a micrometer. They were told to make a one-inch cube.


Hi Richard,

Yeah, they had the exact same test in the old British Railways locomotive fabrication works in Glasgow back in the 50's if you wanted a job in the tool shop.

1" perfectly flat and square cube starting from a piece of round steel bar.

Bloody hard to do...you've got everything going on at the same time....3D-angles, flatness, dimensions....

Practically impossible to do perfectly by hand. [:D]

(As soul destroying as the old Army punishment of shifting a pile of sand with a teaspoon IMO [:D])

cheers,

Ron




dartemo1 -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 0:55:59)

Hi Deniz,

I’ve also asked this question about grooves in the saddle. My impression was that only plasticy materials would eventually develop them. However as John Shelton suggested even bone was not impervious to the wear and on my used F. Navarro guitar there surely were some groves at 4 to 6 string positions. Actually, I was initially hesitant to mess with the saddle (especially removing it from the bridge) but finally just used some sandpaper and voila. I guess adjusting the height would be much tougher with just sandpaper and a pair of hands.




estebanana -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 1:50:31)

The best tool for filing a saddle is a file. But first you rip the saddle down to a close height with a saw. A hand saw will work fine. Then you use a metal file with a medium cut. In America and I think in England we call that a Mill Bastard cut file.

Files are made according to how fine or coarse they are. There are smooths, second cut, bastard and rough, for the basics. Then the pattern of the file , Mill is one pattern cabinet is another etc. For fret, nut and saddle work Mill pattern files work great.

For saddles you probably want a Mill Bastard to do the heavy cutting and shaping and then perhaps a 4" Warding pattern bastard or smooth for turning over the top edge. From a bartard cut file you can pretty much move to 220 grit paper for smoothing and then progressively higher until you get to 600. Usually I do file work, 220, 400, 600 and then a quick buffing with white buffing compound.

Ok file work is deceptive, files cut flatter, tighter and straighter than sand paper in almost every case. Sand paper is for putting the finish on the saddle, files are for making it fit tight and clean. If you are going to do your own saddle work here are a few tips and mechanical pointers that will make your work sharper. It sounds like you have tried to fit saddles so I'm not going to go into how you get it to the right height, etc. Just a mini file tutorial:

To get a flat square bottom on a saddle you can use a small block of wood as a guide. Make sure you check the block with a carpenters square to make sure it has at least one square edge. Put that edge down on the file with the file laying on a table in front of you. Put the saddle next to the block an hold snug to the block. Move the saddle length wise along the file putting some pressure down on it. Make two passes at a time checking between each pass for progress. You can check the bottom of the saddle for square with a small carpenters square. I do this by eye without a block and then check it with a square.

For filing, your thumbs and thumb actions are really important. When you are filing you drive the file with one hand and guide it with the other. With your guide hand move your thumb up over the part of the work, saddle, that you want to file. The saddle is underneath the file and your thumb is on top of the file over the saddle or whatever you are filing. Take something for practice like a scrap of wood or bone. Move the file over the scrap and hold your thumb on top of the file and press the file into the work and firmly move it forward in smooth strokes. In filing you will hear when the file engages the material and cuts. Learn to listen to the file to tell how it is cutting.

For making a saddle thin enough to fit into your slot by using a file do the technique I just explained but put the work on top of the file and drive the saddle with your thumb over the flat bed of the file. Trim the saddle to rough height and then thickness it by laying it flat on the file and pushing the saddle under your thumb. If you are close to the correct thickness you can make few a passes over the file and test and file again. Normally when many luthiers do this they also use a calipers at the same time to test different parts of the saddle thickness and keep working to achieve a uniform thickness.

To round over the top of the saddle the small warding file is nice, but if you have one big file you can still do the job. You make a long bevel on both sides of the top of the saddles edge where the string pass over. Here's a basic way you can do it. Take a pass with the file at a constant 45 degree angle over the edge until you take off about a third of the width of the saddle thickness. Do the same on the other side so you have one third flat on top of the saddle and one third beveled on each side. There should be three facets equal in width and smoothness. Then go for the secondary bevel cuts. Take the angle of the file so that you cut the corners off the bevels you have just made. So instead of three facets you have a profile of eight facets more or less. Then lightly pass your file over the corners of those facets ( if you're good enough to have actually accomplished clean facets) and you'll havea rounded over saddle.

You can clean and smooth the bone with little swatches of black wet a dry sand paper again from 220 to 600. The more you use swatches the riper they get and the better they perform at polishing the bone. Half worn out 220 will still shape and cut bone. Worn out 600 will polish. If you don't have a buffer turn the 600 paper over and burnish the bone with the paper on the back on 600 grit swatch.

So there are three file techniques:

Square bottom of saddle with block on file.

Work under file, thumb applies pressure to area you want to remove material from.

Work on top of file driven over file by guide hand thumb.

Then there are other file techniques like draw filing, which comes in hand once in a while in fret work. But that's for another day.

Of course mileage will vary and there are lots of ways of doing set ups with different tools. I find the files to be most efficacious, fool proof, and cleanest.




at_leo_87 -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 4:19:35)

nice! thank you stephen!




Ruphus -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 8:40:16)

From documentaries on apprentice tests that showed how hard it seems to be for beginners to direct a file, I would had thought that leading a workpiece over sandpaper should be easier. Also seeing how sandpaper being rather available in the average household than a set of files and a vice, it seems to me like the tool to recommend.
But I might be wrong.
Maybe it depends individually on each user´s motorics.

Here is what Frank Ford recommends: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/LowerAction/loweraction01.html


A very detailed and helpful side from a knowledged and very goodwilling man, worth bookmarking for any future questions one might be having on maintenance, setup, repairs etc.

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px




Jeff Highland -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 8:48:58)

Jet 10-20 drum sander for initial thicknessing
12" disc sander for initial shaping
320-600 paper for finishing




Andy Culpepper -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 14:21:58)

If you have a disc sander it's real easy to bump it on that to get a flat bottom. If you just have household type stuff it will take you a while to go from a blank to a finished saddle but if you're just taking off some height then Frank Ford's thing works.
Don't cut any holes in the top, just let the strings lie on it.




jshelton5040 -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 14:58:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

Jet 10-20 drum sander for initial thicknessing
12" disc sander for initial shaping
320-600 paper for finishing

Now here's a procedure I can agree with. The shape at the top of the saddle depends on how the maker sets his intonation...some are rounded some are beveled, it's best to copy the profile of the original just make sure to soften sharp edges.




XXX -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 15:12:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deteresa1
Don't cut any holes in the top, just let the strings lie on it.


Oh i meant the nut saddle, not bridge! In german saddle (at the nut) and bridge (at the bridge) are different things, i thought its the same in english!

Have in mind i dont have anything to fixate the bone. So with a file it would be very hard to ensure i can apply enough pressure using only my hands. With sandpaper i can just put the bone on a table or a piece of glass, and apply my weight to get pressure. This is a bit better but still not very easy coz i have to fixate the sandpaper too, with my other hand.

My last bone took hours and i didnt even finish it. The height was still far too high. Instead i took a saw and cut out 6 deep "holes" into the material, but it was useless because it dampened the sound very much, and apart from that i overdid it with one hole so that the whole bone is useless. I want to start a new version but this time with better preparation.




Andy Culpepper -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 15:34:31)

ohh ok. making a nut can also be tricky. You have to know the exact diameter of the strings in order to file the slots correctly. I use these files:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Special_tools_for:_Nuts_and_saddles/Double-edge_Nut_Files.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=458

You only need the 0.026" / 0.032" and the 0.036" / 0.042".

File the slot with the side of the file that is closest but less than the diameter of the string. So if my high E string is .029" I will use the .026" file for example.
To start with you can draw a line on the nut level with the frets and file the slots down almost to that line. You have to lay out the string spacing with a ruler.
Then put the strings on up to pitch. The strings will probably still be too high at the nut. You can remove a string from its slot and put it in the next one over to work on that slot, taking it down slowly with the file until the string is low enough. Some abrasive thread is handy for smoothing the nut slot so it won't chew into the strings.

This is all after you have shaped the bone to fit in the slot and have the curve sanded on the top.

p.s. I like to polish my nuts up to 12000 grit when no one is looking.




XXX -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Jan. 27 2011 15:39:44)

Ok thanks! Looks like a good site too.




Sr. Martins -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Apr. 19 2011 1:59:19)

Here's something I don't understand..

Why should we want the string to move freely on top of the saddle? I had an old classical guitar which I always played with a pick but recently I started playing fingerstyle and noticed that the strings would move when pushed hard and I thought "Hey, the wound strings developed grooves on the saddle, they dont move...maybe I should do the same to the trebles so they dont slip"...

The sound was imediately better, no kidding. The sound was more focused, crisp and powerfull...yes, more volume too!

Then I bought a guitar to play flamenco and played it for some time without grooves at the saddle. After I did the grooves... yes, you guessed it.


Can someone explain why classical/flamenco guitars shouldnt have grooves on the saddle and the strings should move freely? It never made sense to me on a theoretical level and it surely makes no sense after experiencing the other way (grooves).

Thanks




Jeff Highland -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Apr. 19 2011 3:00:07)

A good question Rui.
I don't have enough experience to answer you, but I understand that Greg Smallman does the saddles on his classicals with grooves.
I tried it on one and my impressions, like yours were favourable




dformell -> RE: Best tool for filing saddle? (Apr. 22 2011 17:50:51)

Stewart-MacDonald sells pre-formed bone nuts & saddles that really save a lot of time with the rough sanding. There cost is in the $8.00 - $10.00 range, well worth the money in time saved! Good luck with your project.

Regards,

Dan




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