silent guitar for flamenco ? (Full Version)

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itziks -> silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 2 2005 5:09:02)

hi

has anyone here tried silent guitars ? I mean those guitars that don't have a body. they are a stick with frame of guitar body. they are only electric amplified. yamaha has such kind of guitar and also miranda and aria. But they all range in the 500-1000 $ price. I found one the has a tag of 175$ - but it has only connection to amplifier. no jack for headphones like the other ones have.
my questions:

1. if i attach an amplified headphones to the amp jack - will it work (assuming there is such thing as amplified headphones - any info on this will help too) ?

2. will you buy such a guitar that is only for prcticing in silence and maybe doing some jamm using electric sound only.

3. will this guitar be good for flamenco playing ? practicing ?

4. it has an equalizer on it - are there active and passive ones ?


any info would help.
thanks

itzik



Guest -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 2 2005 8:04:04)

I think its absolutely useless.

Playing flamenco without a soundboard is waste of time. I do not think about the sound, but tecnique. Flamenco tecnique is based on touching the soundboard ALL the time as a reference point. Thats why there's a tapplate. Not only for tapping, but for touching. Look at whatever good player and you'll see that they have their thumb on the soundboard all the time when playing arpeggios or picado. And some fingers on the tapplate below the strings when playing thumb, alzapua etc.



hamia -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 2 2005 13:54:32)

I got an aria travel guitar a few months back and use it all the time - in fact was playing it just now sitting at the computer! I find it extremely useful for practising mechanical exercises without too much noise. And of course it's good for taking on a plane. It comes with headphones but I never use these as the sound is not good.


Mine cost about 270 dollars and was money well spent.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 3 2005 18:43:15)

I bought one and it was good for practicing if you need to do it silently, or as a travel guitar. I disagree that it is necessary to always touch the soundboard. Guitar is, essentially, strings strung on the box. The sound comes from what you do with the strings, not so much what you do with the box. Of cousre, as Anders pointed out, lots of flamencos are touching the soundboard, but I disagree that the lack of a surface on which to brace your fingers rules out the silent guitars for practice purposes. Of course, it's not going to be your main guitar, but a travel guitar or something you play on the bus.



Skai -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 4 2005 0:11:51)

Practice? Maybe, but nothing will take the place of the real thing, even for practising purposes. In fact, playing the silent guitar will never replace the acoustic as the acoustic has the personality that the silent guitar will never have. The real thing is something with life while the silent guitar is practically dead.



Escribano -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 4 2005 11:12:16)

I have the Sinsonido and it works fine. I added a small cedar block and golpeador for lower golpes. It has a pre-amp and headphone/amplifier 1/4" jack socket.

See:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/m.asp?m=2929&appid=&mpage=1&p=&key=silent%2Cguitar&tmode=&smode=



Guest -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 5 2005 7:07:59)

quote:

I added a small cedar block and golpeador for lower golpes


Thats the way to go. I would add a very small one as well on the top to support the thumb. Making picado exercises without focussing on the thumb is totally waste of time IMO.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 5 2005 17:33:49)

Interesting, I see Paco rest his thumb on the string at least as much as the soundboard?



Guest -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 6 2005 11:38:09)

I think Paco rests on the string and the soundboard. Take a look at Gerardo Nuñez. He rests the the thumb on the soundboard and not on the string when picking or doing freestrokes above the third string. Most modern players do that, and put a slight pressure on the thumb towards the soundboard. This in order to make some kind of anchor point. I cannot play without having contact with the soundboard.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 6 2005 15:25:26)

Anders, I find it unfortunate when people make dogmatic statements about guitar technique. It reminds me of Graf-Martinez, the not-famous guy who wrote a flamenco instruction book, saying the ONLY way to play picado is to flatten out your wrist and claw at the strings. I understand that this is the current vogue and trend right now, as that is how Paco plays and everyone is currently copying Paco. But why do you have to copy Paco? Flamenco has a history before Paco, I'm sure you're aware, and in the old days there were lots of ways to play guitar. People played flamenco and picado very well before Paco came along. But now there is only one way? Do we play this way because it is better or so aficionados don't think we look funny?

Paco plays the way he does because of how he taught and how his particular hand and arm works. It doesn't, and won't work for everyone. If people went around saying that the way William Cumpiano builds guitars is the ONLY way to build guitars, and every other way was USELESS, you might not like it. I barely touch the soundboard at all when I play picado or most techniques for that matter. I hope that doesn't make me useless, but I have no interest in following idiosyncratic trends in Madrid!



Guest -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 6 2005 18:39:13)

Hi Miguel

quote:

I barely touch the soundboard at all when I play picado or most techniques for that matter. I hope that doesn't make me useless


Of course not. We all have to find our way, and I did not intend to say there where only one way. But I did say what I think is right for me and what seems to be right for many players. Then its up to you and anyone else reading this foro to judge for themselves. If you look, there's actually a big difference in the picado of PDL and for instance Nuñez. They are both very fast, but have different ways of doing it.

This thread is about a guitar, where you cannot touch the soundboard while you play, and then it doesn't give you the oportunity to decide whether you wanna touch or not, and this I see as a negative point. But thats just me.

I do agree with what you say about dogmatic statements, and not only talking about flamenco technique.

Nice playing
Anders



Jon Boyes -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 7 2005 11:17:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Anders, I find it unfortunate when people make dogmatic statements about guitar technique. It reminds me of Graf-Martinez, the not-famous guy who wrote a flamenco instruction book, saying the ONLY way to play picado is to flatten out your wrist and claw at the strings.


Mike, I'm not sure where you are getting this from, have you read the book?
It is one thing to write a method and demonstrate a particular technique and quite another to insist it is the ONLY (emphasis yours) way of doing something.

If tutor books provided dozens of different ways of doing things it would be very confusing to the student.

Jon

PS are books by famous people the only ones of value?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 7 2005 15:54:08)

Jon,
I got it from you! An old post of yours...if I am mischaracterizing what he is saying, then I apologize and take it all back.

When a known player and/or master writes a book, I am going to give him a lot more leeway as to his philosophies. After all-he has proven it by the fact that at least it works for him. But if someone writes a book who has not proven it by his performance, than his words are open to suspicion, I think. Isn't this reasonable?



Jon Boyes -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 7 2005 19:41:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
When a known player and/or master writes a book, I am going to give him a lot more leeway as to his philosophies. After all-he has proven it by the fact that at least it works for him. But if someone writes a book who has not proven it by his performance, than his words are open to suspicion, I think. Isn't this reasonable?


Ok, you've heard this from me before [;)] teaching and playing are different skills!!

I think its rare to find a world class player who is also a great teacher. IMO, the greats usually have very little to say that is useful to people like us. What have Bream, Williams, Paco, Sabicas, to name just a few, contributed to pedagogy?
People like Gerardo Nunez, or David Russel who actually do a lot of teaching and write tuition material are rare, IMO.

BTW, Graf Matinez toured Spain as an accompanist, and is pictured in his books hanging out with Paco, Batista and Enrique de Melchor. He is pictured on stage with an ensemble he founded, accompanying Mariano de Delphina, Lela de Fuenteprado and Jose Fortes.

Now I'm not saying is a class A accompanist, of course, but give him some credit! The value of his tuition materials should be judged by whether it works for the people that use it, rather than his status as a flamenco guitarist.

Jon



Miguel de Maria -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 7 2005 19:50:04)

Jon,
you're right I've been pretty hard on the guy. It mostly stems from my impression that he has made dogmatic statements, and that they have been successfully permeating the ranks of amateur guitarists. Why do I have a problem with it? Because to me, that's a limiting and harmful influence. People's hands are shaped so differently, one way will simply not work for everyone. So I think that sometimes these trends are very damaging and must be fought!

But you're right that this information is all second hand and has to be looked at in this light. What do you think?

I also don't know anything about him as a player, except that I've never heard of him! If he plays great, then he should be listened to. If he doesn't, then his advice should be taken with a grain of salt.

I agree that great players are often not great teachers, and don't often know how to describe what they are doing __in the way that people are ready to hear__. People want to hear about the flexion and extension of the distal joint and which tendon is doing what, etc. etc. This is a dead end. It's not how things work.

If you want to become like the great players, it only stands to reason that you must follow in their footsteps. Learn how to work like they do.



Jon Boyes -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 7 2005 19:51:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Jon,
I got it from you! An old post of yours...if I am mischaracterizing what he is saying, then I apologize and take it all back.


Maybe I should apologise [:D] In fairness here's the controversial quote from the book. I'd say its not quite what you said, but it is fairly dogmatic:

(after describing the stroke)
"This is the only stroke which creates the typical flamenco picado which has become a standard. If it is played differently - its just not picado."

Jon



Jon Boyes -> RE: silent guitar for flamenco ? (Mar. 7 2005 20:02:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
People's hands are shaped so differently, one way will simply not work for everyone. So I think that sometimes these trends are very damaging and must be fought!

But you're right that this information is all second hand and has to be looked at in this light. What do you think?


I agree with you about individual differences, certainly. I've long argued that individuals need to find their own solutions that work for them.

You have to see the GM method for what it is though - a method. All methods say 'do it this way', and it would make tedious reading if authors included endless caveats after every instruction. There is no such thing as a perfect method book for an instrument, or a style like flamenco, and it is easy to pick holes. That goes for all the methods I've ever read. I could find faults with Scott Tennant, Aaron Shearer, Juan Martin, whoever, its no problem.

The real question is do GMs materials contribute anything to furthering people's understanding and knowledge of the subject? Is flamenco better for the publication of them? I think it is.

Jon



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