RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Full Version)

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Ruphus -> RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Jan. 18 2011 9:54:45)

While I agree on the common matter of overpricing, electric drills and tuners differ in almost every aspect, aside of that cheap drills tend to be baggy and cease working after a while.

Also, if manufacturing smoothly and precisely operating tuners was to be so self-evident, one would come to see such much more often than it being the case.

Ruphus



kozz -> RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Jan. 18 2011 9:56:27)

quote:

And more power to you kozz. The Fusteros are beautiful and work great but they're still overpriced.
I can't help comparing the complexity of a set of tuners to an ordinary electric hand drill. The drill can be had for around $60 and will last most people a lifetime spinning thousands of times more than any set of tuners and doing vastly more work. Good quality tuners should not cost more than $10-20.


Thanks John,
but how do you compare the price? Really just out of interest.
As I have learned in the 2 years I've been on this forum craftsmanship is a delicate point, and hard to express in $.

Maybe material wise its overpriced...in fact it really is, but then there must be something like luthiers have with their guitars that have ironworkers (if its called that way) with their tuners, isn't it?



jshelton5040 -> RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Jan. 18 2011 14:30:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kozz
but how do you compare the price? Really just out of interest.
As I have learned in the 2 years I've been on this forum craftsmanship is a delicate point, and hard to express in $.

Well, for one thing they're not made of wood.

I suppose hand engraving the metal plate could add substantially to the price since it would take time and the buttons and rollers could be made of ivory but to me the function is all that's important so I'd just as soon have a stamped plate and plastic. Other than that, how could the components of the $300 dollar tuner be 15 times more expensive to make than the $20 tuner. With modern CNC machines precision is not an issue, they're both gold plated, there are no real bearings just sleeves, gears are the same, gear ratio is just a matter of set up, what else is there? Hand assembly? Essentially installing six screws.
In 40 years I have had only one customer actually wear out a set of Gotoh machines. He's a professional studio musician who plays probably 8-10 hours a day and it took him 20 years to wear them out. I replaced them for free. I don't use Gotoh tuners anymore because since I think they're over priced.



RobJe -> RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Jan. 18 2011 16:49:57)

quote:

can't quite get my head around how this works.

I mean if I get somebody to grip the headstock (ie applying much more mass than slightly heavier tuners would), I can't see how this in any way would affect any of the noticible sound/playability parameters of the guitar?

Sure, they may alter the weight balance of the guitar, or smoothness of tuning...but the sustain/response?

In fact, one would instinctively think that the application of golpeadores or a full tap-plate directly onto the soundboard would have a greater effect?

I'm at a loss here.


You are never too old to learn!

First loosen up your mind by looking at the animations at
http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/guitars/hummingbird.html
Second take a plastic ruler, clamp one end to the desk with your finger and ping the free end. Now fix a weight (heavier the better to magnify the effect) to the free end - a big bulldog clip or large lump of blu-tak would do. Ping again and see if you notice any difference in the sustain of the vibrations.

This doesn't constitue a proof of what Anders claims but it might make your mind more open to what he says. You have to trust the experience of someone who has made quite a few flamenco guitars.

Research is not well developed in this field and there are some completely wrong (in my opinion) explanations on the internet.

Hope this helps.

Rob



prd1 -> RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Jan. 18 2011 18:46:47)

A few years ago I read an interview with Sebastian Coe (former middle distance runner). He said that he included 500 sit-ups every day in his exersize regime. The interviewer asked him how that helped with his running - he replied that when he looked at his stomach he felt good and when he felt good he ran faster...



Ron.M -> RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Jan. 19 2011 8:43:53)

quote:

You have to trust the experience of someone who has made quite a few flamenco guitars.


Hi RobJe,

Yeah, I do trust Anders' judgement and experience. I just couldn't see how increasing the headstock mass slightly could have a significant effect on the guitar's sustain and playability, but your diagrams clearly show that (in theory anyway) the whole instrument vibrates in a complex manner and not just the soundboard. Also I know from experience that sometimes a loose string ending touching the headstock can produce an annoying and puzzling buzz on certain notes, so the headstock must be vibrating too.
I guess what we are talking about are very small effects, but probably the difference between a factory made guitar and a luthier made guitar is that the luthier will pay attention to all these tiny details, so that they all add up in the end to make a significant difference in sound and feel.
Much in the same way as an Olympic athlete will work for months even to shave 1/100th of a second off their best time.

Having an Engineering mind, I just tend to like to see recorded technical data to support some of these theories and explanations that are floating around as it is quite easy to construct a theory to support a particular effect so long as it doesn't have to be verified.

However all this doesn't matter a toss if whatever the luthier is doing is working.

You don't need a scientific explanation to appreciate a great guitar.

cheers,

Ron



Ruphus -> RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Jan. 19 2011 10:51:17)

The resonating unit also shows when there being something lose with the tuners ( like when knobs unstick from shafts sometimes ), as it will start rattling.
One could also think of a more obvious construction like of a bow ( as from bow & arrow ), and how the dampening factor would be if you touched it at its ends.

From there wooden pegs could be the most accomodating design anyway, considering their little weight and direct transfer of string tension to the gear head.
However, I personally don´t expect least weight to always be the most desirable condition; with things rather being dependend on the individual resonating unit as a whole.

For instance, I could think of a case when a top being a bit ( not overly ) stiff, with then a tad more inertia ( = weight ) on the head eventually in a reciprocal way helping to get the soundboard moving.
Possibly, each corpus demanding its individually best fitting ( either more or less inert ) neck.

Then again, sometimes things turn out unexpectedly.
For instance, I used to think that a glued neck should always be best in order to transmit; however there exist necks like the replaceables from Hauser I, which are bolted ( similar to stratocasters ).
Or David Schramm´s introduction of necks which are just jammed on ( losely held through levering against a srew head ), yet supposedly working out well.

Ruphus



XXX -> RE: New fustero tuners finally had arrived (Jan. 19 2011 11:04:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe
Research is not well developed in this field and there are some completely wrong (in my opinion) explanations on the internet.


Saying this all the time. There are people overinterpreting things and there are people who doubt everything for the sake of scepticism, which is just as unreasoned as well. If people would just trust their ears/experience, without any prejudice the differences would not be that big.



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