best way to proceed (Full Version)

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Guest -> best way to proceed (Feb. 28 2005 0:45:43)

Hi all. im new to this forum biz but ye all seem to offer good advice. I have been playing guitar for close on 20 years, have been into flamenco for a few years, but only managed to start learning flamenco a couple of months ago. does anyone have any tips on how to proceed? i have so many questions and few answers. I am in Dublin, Ireland and cant find any other flamencos and it seems theres only one guitar teacher in the whole city. any advice on how to proceed would be great. also i dont read music..is that a big hindrance? thanks for any advice ye may have



Jon Boyes -> RE: best way to proceed (Feb. 28 2005 8:57:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guest
I am in Dublin, Ireland and cant find any other flamencos


I put flamenco and Dublin into Google:

http://www.iol.ie/%7Eflamenco/home.html
http://www.geocities.com/flamencoymas/home.html

My suggestions:

Go along to a dance class and see if you can find an experienced player that you can tag along with or even take lessons from. If thre is a specialist classical guitar dealer in town (there should be), chances are they might have a register of any flamenco guitar teachers in the area.

Buy a beginners method book: Juan Martins El Arte Flamenco... is good, if a little old school, and the Graf Martinez method (two books plus CD) is excellent too, and a lot more modern. Don't buy both or you will get confused by the fact that that the authors see to teach a completely different approach. Thats flamenco, I'm afraid [:D].

Oscar Herrero makes a seies of beginners videos which are popular too.

Listen to/watch as much flamenco as you can. Go and order the Saura DVD 'Flamenco' NOW, for a superb collection of flamenco stars, old and new, beatifully filmed and a great cross section of the three ingredients of flamenco: cante (that's the singing), baile (dancing) and lastly toque (the guitar).

Finally, do you have a guitar? A classical guitar wil do to start off, but you would be better off getting a flamenco if you can afford it, there are physical differences.

Jon



Guest -> RE: best way to proceed (Feb. 28 2005 12:03:11)

thanks for that advice john...much appreciated..i didnt explain myself brilliantly..i have found a teacher and have taken 5 or 6 lessons but its expensive (what isnt!) and im not overjoyed with the teacher..however i feel i can learn the basics from him..but at some stage soon i will have to proceed alone and that was mainly why i was asking...also, as i said, i dont read music, do you think that's a big hindrance??at the moment i am using a bad classical guitar, i have played flamenco before, but all advice seems that lower range guitars are not great..i feel id be better off saving up and buying a good one next time im in spain..i know there are differences but it seems feasible to learn on a classical, if not ideal, what you think? thanks for your help,

dylan



Jon Boyes -> RE: best way to proceed (Feb. 28 2005 12:21:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guest
also, as i said, i dont read music, do you think that's a big hindrance??


In flamenco? No, I think its an advantage [:D]

Seriously though, its not really that relevant. Flamenco is a pain in the ass to notate acurately anyway and its very difficult to get all the detail in there. Your ears are your main tools.

quote:


at the moment i am using a bad classical guitar, i have played flamenco before, but all advice seems that lower range guitars are not great..i feel id be better off saving up and buying a good one next time im in spain..i know there are differences but it seems feasible to learn on a classical, if not ideal, what you think? thanks for your help,
dylan


Its feasible to start off, and its true that often a very cheap classical will sound no different to a very cheap flamenco, but there are physical differences - esp the bridge height - that making certain flamenco technques easier.

Great name, BTW, my son Dylan was one last week [:)].

..and his dad is still recovering from Wales' amazing performance against France on Saturday [:)][:)][:)] What a match!! Phew, I needed a stiff drink after that one.

Are you Irish? Wales Vs Ireland will be unmissable - Ireland are on superb form too.

Jon



Guest -> RE: best way to proceed (Feb. 28 2005 13:21:08)

hi jon..yeh im irish alright..the match was great..we were all cheering for wales..what about ireland v england !!happy bithday to the young fella....maybe ill just lower the bridge on the guitar i have..maybe that would help?
dylan



Jon Boyes -> RE: best way to proceed (Feb. 28 2005 14:44:11)

Yeah, saw the Ireland Vs England match too, great stuff. Driscoll is scary, our boys are going to have to watch out for him [;)]

You can't lower the bridge (without physically removing it, sanding it down, refixing etc - a professionals job and not worth it on a cheap guitar).

You are probably thinking about the saddle, which sits in a slot in the bridge. Trimming that will help get the action down, sure, but the bridge height is much lower on a flamenco, brining the strings much closer to the top of the guitar. For golpe techniques and some other things, that close proximity is important.

Jon



Guest -> RE: best way to proceed (Feb. 28 2005 14:58:09)

You can actually lower the bridge. Just the part with the bone, if you cannot lower the saddle enough to obtain a good action. Its best done with a small thumb plane, but chisel and sandpaper can do as well. Dont do it if you are not sure about what you're doing, and leave the saddle slot with a depth of at least 1 1/2mm. (this can be lowered as well, but can be a little bit more tricky)



Jon Boyes -> RE: best way to proceed (Feb. 28 2005 15:12:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders
You can actually lower the bridge. Just the part with the bone, if you cannot lower the saddle enough to obtain a good action.


Now you've got me confused![:D]

Do you mean sand down the top of the bridge ie across the saddle slot, to enable the saddle itself to be filed down further?

Jon



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: best way to proceed (Mar. 1 2005 0:48:36)

A classical guitar is fine to begin our flamenco guitar journey. One suggestion is to add a tap plate (golpeador) to protect your instrument. There are several you can apply yourself if you are brave. You can have a luthier do it for you if he is knowledgeable.

You could try to lower the saddle a bit if the instrument will allow it without too much buzz. Always save the original saddle. A pro can lower the saddle in a few minutes and you will play heck doing it yourself.

I like Jon’s suggestions. There are many method books out there and try to settle upon one and only one. Learn it inside out. An additional suggestion for a method book is Juan Martin’s “Solos Flamencos”, Mel Bay MB99825SET. It comes with DVD and CD.

My advice is to first learn traditional flamenco so the rhythms make sense and you can more easily distinguish the different palos (pieces). Learning correct technique is important. Never continue playing if what you are doing hurts your hands or body. If that occurs then seek assistance – like from this forum.

Check my web site for some ideas. Check out Chuck Keyser’s flamenco course.

http://users.aol.com/BuleriaChk/private/flamenco.html

http://users.aol.com/BuleriaChk/private/compas/compasa5.html

This should keep you busy for some time.

Not being able to read music is not a showstopper. Flamenco guitarists in Spain learned by listening and emulating the sound they heard. That is why there is more than one way to “correctly play” any flamenco guitar technique. Today there are so many methods that it can be confusing and overwhelming to the beginning student where to begin.

Listen to CD’s and watch DVD’s about flamenco whenever possible. You can learn a lot that way.



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: best way to proceed (Mar. 1 2005 0:56:15)

Jon;

Good advice!

Congratulations on your sons first birthday! Our son is 26 and our daughter is 24. Children grow up so fast! Enjoy every moment raising your children. That is the greatest investment you will ever make.

Contrary to the common term – terrible two’s, everyone I know has expressed amazement at what two-year-olds can do. Language skills and so many other things are truly well developed during this period. You have a lot to look forward to. Take lots of pictures!!!!! [:)]



dylan -> RE: best way to proceed (Mar. 1 2005 20:32:44)

thanks for that advice john...all seems a bit overwhelming but woth it none the less...am taking lessons but class seems to get bogged down as i try to emulate falsetas and left hand work..when it seems i should be learning right hand technique and learning to play different palos etc..what you reckon...dylan (formerly known as guest)



Guest -> RE: best way to proceed (Mar. 2 2005 12:41:50)

quote:

Go along to a dance class and see if you can find an experienced player that you can tag along with or even take lessons from


I'd like to second this suggestion. My father was Spanish and raised me listening to flamenco, as he had many friends in the New York flamenco community including Sabicas, but that’s another story… Years later when I, already a working musician, took a renewed interest in flamenco I was shocked to see I couldn’t automatically follow a song with only two chords.

By that time I was in Puerto Rico (where my mother was from) with very little access to people who could or would be willing to explain flamenco rythmic structure. So for three months I religiously visited a flamenco dance class that did not use guitar, only handclapping. They would not explain anything, people would just follow along; but it and finally it began to dawn on me. Then I looked for a guitar teacher, but it was much easier because I didn’t have to struggle with the rhythm.



Carlos Bedoya -> RE: best way to proceed (Mar. 2 2005 12:50:59)

quote:

I'd like to second this suggestion. My father was Spanish and raised me listening to flamenco...


BTW, I posted this, it seems I timed out or forgot to login...



Jon Boyes -> RE: best way to proceed (Mar. 2 2005 18:13:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dylan
thanks for that advice john...all seems a bit overwhelming ..


Yes, it is [:D] I am completely overwhelmed by it all too, I'm afraid.[;)]

The great thing about flaemenco is that you can dip in and out of palos as you wish. No point in spending a year putting togther a steller bulerias with half a dozen awesome falsetas if thats all you can play. (Well, not unless that whats you want to do, you get my drift...)

I tend to circle around things, always building on what I've picked up before. There are some palos I don't know any falsetas for, others I am more familiar with and could probablyknock out an OK solo.

You never stop learning and as soon as you are playing the right chords in compas, you are playing flamenco.

Jon



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