RE: New vs Old (Full Version)

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Message

XXX -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 13:59:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

Ron.M - As I've said three times already I do not mind the advertising on the forum


The difference is that you seem to see "normal" posts as "advertising and I just see them as normal posts.


He probably means not or not only only posts but the banner on top of the page. [:D]



Ron.M -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 15:08:16)

quote:

but the banner on top of the page


Ah!

But that is Simon's advert for his DVD and he's allowed to advertise on his own site!
Anders is just the unpaid extra. [:D]

"One day you'll be a Star my boy...just sign here..." [:D]

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 15:59:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

but the banner on top of the page


Ah!

But that is Simon's advert for his DVD and he's allowed to advertise on his own site!
Anders is just the unpaid extra. [:D]


of course, Ron [;)]
But really, i think everybody knows how an advert looks like [:D] no need to discuss on this.



Ron.M -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 16:04:19)

quote:

i think everybody knows how an advert looks like


Yeah, Deniz..

Like your advert for Spanish Chopped Tomatoes you have on EVERY ONE of your posts. [:D]

cheers,

Ron



TANúñez -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 19:01:23)

So after 8 pages of discussions, have we come to the answer of what is better, new or old?



malakka -> [Deleted] (Jan. 28 2011 19:15:03)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 28 2011 20:19:44



Ron.M -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 19:27:45)

quote:

So after 8 pages of discussions, have we come to the answer of what is better, new or old?


[:D][:D]

Ah, Tom....it's the old saying...

"It's not reaching the destination that really matters, but the adventure in trying to get there..." [:D]

(We must have countless threads like this in the archives now..[:-])

cheers,

Ron



Arash -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 20:41:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

So after 8 pages of discussions, have we come to the answer of what is better, new or old?


yes we have.........the answer is : not too old, but also not brand new [:D]

let say 70s to 90s [;)] (specially Condes[:D])[8D]



Ron.M -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 20:53:25)

quote:

not too old, but also not brand new


Well Arash... a few years ago, I sold a 1971 Ramirez 1A Blanca and used the dough to buy a second-hand Bernal Blanca, plus a brand new Anders Eliasson Negra (well..mainly because I saw the ad at the top of the page..that's the main thing that influenced me to make my decision [:-][:D])

cheers,

Ron



kuqi -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 21:37:22)

Dear Ron,

don't be enbarreseed my friend - you and many more have been influenced by these adverts...but at least you don't join the many who kill discussions with 'buy an Anders...'



XXX -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 28 2011 21:41:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
(well..mainly because I saw the ad at the top of the page..that's the main thing that influenced me to make my decision [:-][:D])


oh you got the guitar in exchange for the ad? [;)] <-- please note the smiley.



estebanana -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 0:02:47)

If I were to take an eight string Brahms guitar by David Rubio and make a plan of it and publish the plan, I could go around saying this is an homage to the great master Rubio. But how would people feel if I continually branded myself with the Rubio guitar by going into discussion sites and associating my name with the plan? Yes I can teach you to make the Faulk-Rubio Brahms guitar and if you can't build a guitar or afford to purchase my copy, which by the way will be a valuable collectors item, my associate in Pakistan can make one for your for 3500.00 instead of my 10,000 dollar price.

Then continue ad naseum to post for several months about the attributes of the Faulk-Rubio Brahms guitar, ( doubly branding myself with both Brahms and Rubio in one fast hyphen) How would people react to that? And if someone said hey that looks kinda fishy that you are claiming this to be an homage, yet you take delight and no shame in signifying off the deceased masters name. Would you agree or disagree with this persons opinion?

To make another analogy, what If I were to do the same thing with a Dammann double top guitar? Since Dammann is still alive and around my own age that would be quite cheeky don't you think? If I were to go around in chat rooms saying hey I make this Dammann double top copy and you can buy the plan. I don't make any money off the plan because it's an homage to the master Dammann, but in fact the plan is known as the Faulk-Dammann plan. Again I would be branding myself with a top blue chip name and concurrently claiming it was purely an homage. Clever no?

So if I added to my branding off Dammann's name and the Faulk-Dammann (double German names in fact it could sound really seriously artsy) model plan that I make the Faulk-Dammann plan for 8500.00 but if you can't afford one my man Afdash in Lahore Pakistan can make one for 4000.00.

What if I took that act to one of the classical guitar discussion groups where those fine builders who make their own versions of double tops talk with players about guitars. How long to you think it would be before that act got shot down? I bet there are some fairly irascible classical builders who would not like that one bit.

Yet for pointing out the 900 pound elephant (or white gorrilla) in the room I get treated like I'm some rabid dog biting people? All I did point at the emperors new clothes and say look everyone he's half naked!

There's making an homage and there is being commercial, and often they overlap. There is a point at which a disparity is created between an homage which serves to honor a master and an homage which begins to broadcast commercial messages. When that threshold is reached the homage begins to look disingenuous. For some people that seems ok and to others it seems unethical.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 1:55:33)

quote:

continue ad naseum to post


[:D][:D][:D]



cathulu -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 6:52:00)

This thread has gone way to personal - I hope nobody has been overly offended.

Thank god people can look past the personalities and see a good guitar when it is handed to them. We don't have to be friends with the luthier, that is a blessing. It is just a money transaction after all.

So nobody should worry, it will be alright. This too shall pass.



krichards -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 7:29:27)

quote:

It is just a money transaction after all.


Oh no its not!

When you buy a guitar from the guy that built it you enter into a relationship. Usually, thats a friendship that can be long lasting.

Not the same when you buy a factory guitar from a shop: thats just a money transaction



Kubase -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 8:14:45)

quote:

Yet for pointing out the 900 pound elephant (or white gorrilla) in the room I get treated like I'm some rabid dog biting people?


It's probably not the point you are making, rather how you are making it.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 8:43:07)

quote:

Dear Ron,

don't be enbarreseed my friend - you and many more have been influenced by these adverts...but at least you don't join the many who kill discussions with 'buy an Anders...'


¿Whats your problem and what are you trying to say?

Instead of stupid cynical posts, come on and say what you want to say. Besides, I can see on your profile that your last post was 3 years ago. Did you wait 3 years in order to post a message which is mainly just empty and insulting? Take another couple of years of break.



prd1 -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 10:43:39)

...not quite so nice.

If his 'ass' had of been black of of pakistani origin most folk would be disgusted by racist attacks - but as he's an English guy it's all fine and dandy?

yeeeeeee-ha...



Ron.M -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 11:55:23)

Hi estebanana,

Well, I don't know all the ins and outs of the Luthery business, but surely if someone is looking for a good copy of an old master and you hear of someone who can do it well and is also enthusiastic about the design...and you are willing to pay the $10,000 or whatever asking price...then what's wrong with that?

I don't know if Tom B goes around putting down new designs or innovations of other builders on the guitar builder's forums on the net...if he does, then that would be wrong IMO.

But if he is just generally enthusiastic about the old designs and explains and enthuses on his reasons why....then what's wrong with that?

Anyway, it hardly seems to be a big commercial enterprise at only 2 guitars a year. More like a dedicated hobby.

There are some amateur Flamenco guitar fans who just spend all their time learning and playing all Paco's stuff. If that's all they want to do, then good luck to them.
It's hardly harming Paco.

cheers,

Ron



Anders Eliasson -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 12:33:01)

Ron

Your last post shows me that basiccaly you havent understood anything of what has been going on on the Luthiers section for the past 2 1/2 years.

I´ve tried to explain many times why there sometimes are such hard arguments and tough vibes between some of us (Read Tom Blackshear versus me and others). But I can see on the way this thread is turning that I could equally have been talking to the mule which is grassing behind my house. Would have been more fun to

To Estebanana:
You forgot one thing: If you make a copy of mr X guitars and promote your self with it, Remember to put it VERY CLEAR that mr X is the best guitarbuilder in the world and that you personally have improved his design. The go on for a couple of years talking out LOUDLY about this every time some other design is being discussed. Saying in xx posts that building anything else than your improved copy of the best guitar in the world is a total waste of time and only for stupid persons.

Only this way you could earn a place which would be on TomB´s level.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 12:36:55)

quote:

But if he is just generally enthusiastic about the old designs and explains and enthuses on his reasons why....then what's wrong with that?


I'll break my silence here for a moment and say I just heard a very interesting guitar played by Grisha at GSI in California. The guitar was made by a Israeli named Erez Perelman, and I have to say that it sounded very flamenco and very old school, imo.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/product.php?productid=3664 and scroll down to the video.



XXX -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 12:39:35)

Is that Grishas composition?



Arash -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 12:47:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear


I'll break my silence here for a moment


Don't be so shy Tom.
Please tell us more about the Reyes Plan [:D]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 13:05:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

Is that Grishas composition?



I don't know about Grisha's music, which is always good, but what I posted is about the guitar's sound and how impressive it was, with its fast attack and strong bell like qualities. And being that the guitar is only $4,500 at GSI, this price places it in a more attractive price range for most players.

The guitar has a certain propio sello that stands out among many guitars that I hear today. And on top of that, it has a strong inner voice in the mid range that holds well for rasgueado; almost like a freight train :-)

It seems he learned well, some of the flamenco building techniques from Eugene Clark, a very fine old-school builder in Tacoma Washington.



prd1 -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 13:39:39)

Not sure who said - 'no publicity is bad publicity'

Tom - I've got the Reyes plan that seems to have caused so much animosity (see quote above!!!) - I don't want to shoot the messanger - but what is the purpose of the bridge plate? This is the only plan that I have that includes a bridge plate like this - please understand that I don't have a vast collection of plans, mostly those from the book by Roy Courtnall and a couple of others from LMI (Sabicas 5 strutt Barbero etc...).

I treat guitar plans in much he same way as I treat tab - I can follow a Blackshear plan or a Faucher transcription - but it's not going to make me play or build with better feeling - they're only a guideline - if we could all build guitars to the standard of the luthiers on this site, their guitars would not command the prices and result in the waiting lists that they do...but most of us can only aspire to that - keep it up guys - get working and get those waiting lists down!!!!



Andy Culpepper -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 14:02:24)

Let me give an example of how the Reyes plan has helped me.

Let me also say that if Tom B did modify the plan in some way and it's not stated on the plan, then that does bother me. The fact that he "idealized the shape" of the top and back to match doesn't bother me very much.

I have both the Reyes plan and the Sabicas Barbero plan in the shop but I have never built either of them. However I have studied them, and noticed that the braces on the Reyes are smaller on one side of the guitar. I also noticed that on the Barbero plan, the treble bridge wing is .5 mm lower than the bass (this might have something to do with the angled harmonic bar).
Anyway, I decided to try on my next build shaving the treble side braces down very slightly more than the bass, and scraping the treble bridge wing down an extra .5 mm. I was very happy with the results of that guitar and I'm doing the same thing on my current one. If this one is good in the same way I'll keep doing it.

So basically I'm very happy the plans were there just to give me some small insight into the thinking of two master guitar makers, which in turn benefitted my guitar making. I'm grateful to Tom for that.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 14:12:33)

As far as advertising is concerned, get real.
All the luthiers on this list are getting their name out there by being here. That's not the only reason we're on here, but if you think you're making a good product, why not tell people about it.
I've been on this forum for almost 2 years, and the person that's made an impression on me the most as "advertising" is Anders. Let's face it, this is Anders' forum. I'm cool with that because I respect Anders and he clearly deserved his reputation here, as annoying as the built-in PR machine can sometimes be. I'm happy for Anders and I like what he stands for.
I truly don't think Tom goes in the for the heavy self-promotion. Half the time he jumps on here (which is rarely), he's touting some other builder such as Navarro (that I did find a little strange actually). I think he's genuinely excited about the old masters and just enjoys building and talking about them. He's not pulling a Kenny Hill and getting his copies mass produced in China, or, as far as I know, Pakistan. But maybe there is something I have missed. Anyway, that's all I have to say. Peace out



TANúñez -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 14:37:44)

quote:

I'll break my silence here for a moment and say I just heard a very interesting guitar played by Grisha at GSI in California. The guitar was made by a Israeli named Erez Perelman, and I have to say that it sounded very flamenco and very old school, imo.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/product.php?productid=3664 and scroll down to the video.


This Perelman is very nice. I had never heard of him before. It reminds me a lot of a Shelton-Farretta. I appreciate these old school sounding guitars. It's nice to hear a guitar like this in a time when a lot of instruments are built in a more modern style.



kuqi -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 15:32:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

Well Arash... a few years ago, I sold a 1971 Ramirez 1A Blanca and used the dough to buy a second-hand Bernal Blanca, plus a brand new Anders Eliasson Negra (well..mainly because I saw the ad at the top of the page..that's the main thing that influenced me to make my decision [:-][:D])

cheers,

Ron


Ron - please accept my appologies - in hindsight I think you were making an English joke regarding buying the Anders?

Anders - I have many problems but not any that I would wish to share on a luthiery forum with you! Thamks for taking the time to check my history.

I joined the forum many years ago - at the time the forum discussted many topics relevent to the Oud - now it seems to be a popularity contest? I'm not on anyones side - not yours, estabananias, Toms or anyone elses - everyone has their opinion, each is valid...

I didn't realise that I had to make an opinion to every topic in order to have acceptability when I do make a post...I'll now go back under the stone from which I crawled out from, as requested.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 29 2011 15:43:48)

quote:

what is the purpose of the bridge plate? This is the only plan that I have that includes a bridge plate like this


If you are building a copy of a master plan, then use what they build with. There are other makers that use a bridge strap; Ramirez, Barbero, Hernandez y Aguado, etc. I have a '51 Barbero top plan with an extended thin strap across the top. I think the position to take is to use the master plan with whatever is the norn for the original maker.

I have used a Hauser style bridge strap on a 1917 Santos classical design and it worked well with that slight modification.

The bridge is essentially the stiffner for the top but a strap can lend a certain stability to its core. One thing I'll share is that some flamenco guitar makers would dig out some wood under the bridge to promote a faster pull up and tightness to the playing action, and the strap addition could have lent some replacement to the loss of wood for this particular technique. The strap would also hide certain tone adjustment techniques like this.

I was able to identify this particular technique when I had the 1957 Hernandez y Aguado bridge off, many years ago.



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