RE: New vs Old (Full Version)

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elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 11 2011 23:14:51)

R u kidding me? Is this also against the rules of the forum? You can see from my avatar that I joined a couple of months ago. I did a couple of searches (as I always do) to find a related thread. I didn't, so I created this one. I did not force anybody to participate and I apologized on my very first post if this thread was redundant and I quote: "I am not sure if this has been discussed but I believe it is a very interesting topic." What else did you want me to do? Read all the thousands of threads before I create a new one?


Dinos

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: elgreco

Ricardo, Andy and Ruphus were the only ones that offered constructive opinions (as usual) but I was hoping people would not just blame the contemporary woods. Santos might had very stiff spruce. Again as a naive guitar user, I wonder how hard it is to detect a "good" batch of wood. Can it be done a priori? Is it a particular forest, region, climate. Were the best trees cut last century or something?

How long have you been reading this forum? This stuff has been discussed ad nauseum for years.



TANúñez -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 11 2011 23:16:46)

quote:

Why the contemporary luthiers do not make guitars that can compete with the 50s and 70s guitars?


This is your opinion. Not fact! I forgot to ask you what was leading you to this assumption in the first place?

I would also classify Lester with the "contemporary luthiers".



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 11 2011 23:27:59)

Well if Anders feelings represent the rest of the luthiers of the forum, I apologize if stating my assumption was insulting in this thread. It was certainly not my intention to disrespect. I also did not expect that it would have such a bearing, since I am just an average Joe Schmoe, so I cannot imagine that there is anything that I could say to insult your sweat and tears. But I think I have proved that this assumption or myth whatever you want to call it, was created by the whole flamenco community, the resellers (most expensive current ebay guitars are a santos and a hernandez), the luthiers (name their models after old masters, make reeditions etc.), the collectors who raise the prices, and a lot of the artists that have expressed a liking to the old guitars etc. I am a flamenco newbie so if that is the message that I get from all the segments of the community, I tend to accept it. This assumption is either right so I expect the members to elaborate or just say that they are not willing to share those secrets because that would hurt their business. That would be totally acceptable. Or it is false. I really do not see how you could prove it wrong through this discussion unless you would send me 20 of the best 70s guitars and 20 of the best 2000s guitars. I would be really happy to try them out and form a real opinion. :) But it sounds impractical and that is why I have not tried to defend my assumption.

Dinos



jshelton5040 -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 11 2011 23:38:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elgreco

This assumption is either right so I expect the members to elaborate or just say that they are not willing to share those secrets because that would hurt their business. That would be totally acceptable. Or it is false. I really do not see how you could prove it wrong through this discussion unless you would send me 20 of the best 70s guitars and 20 of the best 2000s guitars. I would be really happy to try them out and form a real opinion. :) But it sounds impractical and that is why I have not tried to defend my assumption.

You come on a luthier's list and ask why the old guitars are so much better than the new ones. The consensus opinion is "they aren't". There's your answer...why do you continue to troll?



TANúñez -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 11 2011 23:55:11)

As you gain more experience and play more guitars, new and old, you'll start to form your own opinion on the matter. There really is no answer to your question as it really comes down to personal preference and not what is better. I think you got a lot of good answers here. Not just two or three. What you really got, was a lot of opinions. I enjoy guitars made by contemporary luthiers as much as I enjoy vintage ones. However, I bet for every master built vintage guitar that I like, I can find one made by a contemporary luthier at the same time that is just as good. I think a lot of it has to do with the "it" factor when dealing with vintage instruments. Santos, Barbero and even Esteso were pioneers of the flamenco guitar. That is what makes them so desirable. They made the flamenco guitar what it is today and did it so well that very little needs to be done, if anything, to change that formula. Aside from a few slight improvements as Devoe makes.



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 11 2011 23:55:42)

John,

I do not consider you and Anders the consensus. I am sorry.

D.



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 0:08:39)

Hi Tom,

I am afraid I disagree that I got good answers. All I got was irrelevant and petty accusations from people that mis-perceived my assumption (not even my an opinion) as a personal attack. Those accusations ranged from "I was creating redundant threads" to "I was creating and spreading myths". I mean that is just total nonsense.

D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

As you gain more experience and play more guitars, new and old, you'll start to form your own opinion on the matter. There really is no answer to your question as it really comes down to personal preference and not what is better. I think you got a lot of good answers here. Not just two or three. What you really got, was a lot of opinions. I enjoy guitars made by contemporary luthiers as much as I enjoy vintage ones. However, I bet for every master built vintage guitar that I like, I can find one made by a contemporary luthier at the same time that is just as good. I think a lot of it has to do with the "it" factor when dealing with vintage instruments. Santos, Barbero and even Esteso were pioneers of the flamenco guitar. That is what makes them so desirable. They made the flamenco guitar what it is today and did it so well that very little needs to be done, if anything, to change that formula. Aside from a few slight improvements as Devoe makes.



Randy Reynolds -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 0:12:06)

I don't think there is any debate that good Flamenco guitars with some age are very appealing and generally better than when they were brand new. Usually guitarists understand this readily and are willing to invest a year or two to develop a new guitar.

It is true that dealers and collectors can benefit from this aging effect and expand it to mythological proportions.

There are no luthier secrets. Building a guitar is a process involving hundreds of decisions and practices including the selection of excellent wood.

All luthiers produce variation in the quality of their instruments. You can shop for the best one according to you.

Really good music is often played on average instruments.



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 1:17:17)

Now this I consider a good answer even if it goes against my original assumption. Clear and straight to the point. :)

Dinos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Reynolds

There are no luthier secrets. Building a guitar is a process involving hundreds of decisions and practices including the selection of excellent wood.




malakka -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 2:57:59)

Every guitar is different and every guitar player is different. One man's grail can be another's junk. Some folks think that a Gerundino (one actually built by him) are the ultimate, while others think a Reyes or a Barbero or an Archangel or an Esteso are the utlimate (just naming the most hyped guitars by dealers). I have been able to try out a Gerundino a Reyes, a Reyes hijo, a Barba, couple of Devoes, a couple of nice Condes (including a real nice early 60's one) and the thing I found is that each one sounded awesome at the time in it's own way. Dealers like to hype guitars- some are "musical" than others, "this one is a real canon", "these builders are the Reyes or the Barbero of the new millenium", etc.

Perhaps you should try some guitars for sale and see what suits you. Meet some folks and try their guitars and visit some delaers. Although every guitar is different, maybe a certain luthier's or factory's (uh oh, I will now get in trouble form the luthiers) system will suit you more than others. For example, you may find the feel and sound of Condes better than a Reyes. There are so many factors in the way a guitar is built that it is overall better to judge an individual guitar than to fixate on a particular builder. Pulsation, shape of neck, scale, etc. can really influence how a guitar feels to you. Of course, you can commission a guitar to be built and have some things made to your needs.

Also, since you are in the SF, there are local luthiers in Northern California- Stephen Faulk, Glenn Canin, and Mark Berry are all in the Bay Area and make great guitars- I have tried all three and found one builder that suited me more and bought one. Just contact them and go and try one.

There are lots of threads about guitars on this foro and on the Flamenco Teacher foro if you search. It is a lot to sift through, but there is a lot of info you might find helpful or just more confusing.



HemeolaMan -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 4:13:14)

Troll alert.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 4:45:42)

quote:

I expect the members to elaborate or just say that they are not willing to share those secrets because that would hurt their business. That would be totally acceptable. Or it is false. I really do not see how you could prove it wrong through this discussion unless you would send me 20 of the best 70s guitars and 20 of the best 2000s guitars. I would be really happy to try them out and form a real opinion. :) But it sounds impractical and that is why I have not tried to defend my assumption.


Dinos.
You´re not being fair. You´ve been here a couple of month. Some of us have been here for many years. During that time, builders like John, Tom etc (I´ll include myself as well). have been helpfull and given their opinion on more or less all topics about guitar building and guitars. Noone has been afraid of hurting their own business. So please take it easy.....
Besides this is a forum and a very lively one. You want the members to answer according to your rules. But thats not the way forums work. You get what there are and nothing else. Like it or not.
I STRONGLY disagree with what you say. But I accept your right to say what you say. But dont get on my back for disagreeing with you. I have my rights to have an opinion as well?????? I´m not trying to be deconstructive. I just disagree.

Your assuming a lot for being a newbie (your own word) Maybe in your part of the world, things are the way you assume. I dont know. I havent been there. Where I live, things are not like that. Almost everyone´s playing new guitars and are looking for new guitars. Old guitars you hardly see. Or you only see them in collections like the one of José Luis Postigo. And he himself is always looking around for new guitars and new builders.

To your last idea of comparing old to new guitars. It could only be done if you had a time machine and could test the old guitars when they were new as well.
All guitars have a time cyclus. They change during that time. You cant imagine how much a guitar changes during its first week, month, year etc. Besides, as Ricardo said, guitars have their days. (Violins etc as well)
Most guitars end up being more gentle, softer in the edges and with a fuller sound and feel (just like human beings) and one day they reach the point when they go down. They loose tension in their soundboard and so they loose projection and power. They get tired. (Just like human beings as well)

You say that we cant prove you wrong. to this I will only say that you yourself cant prove that you´re right. In the end we cant prove anything nor you, nor me. But we can both have our opinions.

So please accept that I totally disagree with what you say and that I think its a mental idea that you´ve develloped and that its not based on reality. If you want to go deeper with this, try not to listen to myth and try not to mix sought after with value or quality. Sought after is being determined by economical market structures more than anything else. And most of all, try listening to the ones disagreeing with you as well. If you only accept opinions like your onw, then you´ll never learn anything.

As TANuñez says: A good guitar is a good guitar. Regardless of it's maker. To this I will add regardless of how old it is.[8D]



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 9:27:58)

It is true, that I have found it really hard to find flamenco guitars in the States or Greece. In the States electric guitars are by far the most popular with acoustics coming distant second. So the only "flamenco guitars" that Guitar Center (the biggest music instruments chain in America) carries are Cordobas and Manuel Rodriguez. :) I am not going to even comment about their quality. They are factory built anyways. The few places ( I only count a handful around the States, luthiermusic in NY, GSP in SF, GSI and Dan Zeff/Trilogy in Santa Monica and LA respectively, Blue Guitar in SD, Rosewood in Seattle and a couple more in Texas). That means you need to pay hundreds of dollars and travel thousands of miles to try the 20 guitars/shop that these shops carry. To the ones I have been (GSP, luthiermusic and Guitar Gallery) I only found old beaten up flamenco guitars that are sold as consignment so are jacked up in price. (luthiermusic excluded) The pushy staff are really not in the mood to let you try them unless they are sure you are there to buy a guitar which they are really trying to shove down your throat. In the Guitar Gallery in Washington DC I had to sit sideways on their staircase to play the two guitars that they allowed me to play (had to bring them down from some shelves in the roof out of dusty cases). It was totally ridiculous but the whole place was a shack. Luhtiermusic was the only place that gave me a whole room full of guitars and let me alone to play. Unfortunately I chose the room with the under 4K guitars (back then I couldn't imagine that I would need more than 4k to play a decent guitar) and most of them were terrible estudio Condes and some Carillos which I personally find really hard to play. As for Greece there is only one place you can find flamenco guitars (Andromidas.gr carries Bernabes, Carillos and Burguets) and they also are very careful in bringing down all their guitars and taking them out of their shrink-wrap. I perhaps should have visited Lazarides who is the only Greek flamenco guitar luthier but had no time this Xmas break when I was down there. I have not visited the local luthiers here in SF although I am very well aware of them. Hopefully I will soon but I am afraid that they also may get frustrated if some punk like me shows up just to try their guitars and then disappear without buying one. I am totally fine by you disagreeing with me. I never said otherwise and I agree that my assumption may very well be a mental idea. But let me make a case for some partial truth. Condes have the biggest market share in the flamenco guitars. The new Condes can not be compared with the old Condes. I think these are facts not just my opinion. So I created this thread to ask why. I didn't mean that any of you, can never create a guitar as good if not better than a Barbero but maybe my initial post sounded too absolute and unfair. But I also wonder, if the guitar makers that you guys apprenticed with, shared all their knowledge or kept some aces under their sleeves.

D.



gerundino63 -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 10:00:02)

It is all quite simple I think.

I have played all the famous builders. Old and new.

End up with two top guitars.

1 A new Anders Eliasson ( now 3 years old)
2 a Gerundino ( 21 years old)

Both equal good, with different sound and different feel.

If you want the same sound and feel as the Gerundino. you will not find it in any other guitar, you have to pay whatever for a Gerundino.

If you want the same sound and feel as the Anders Eliasson you will not find it in any other guitar, you pay 3000 euro's and call Anders Eliasson.

That's it.
[:)]



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 10:10:21)

Hmmm,

I wonder why your avatar does not say Anders2008 instead of Gerundino63.

[:D][:D][:D]
Dinos



gerundino63 -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 10:33:12)

My Avatar name is gerundino63 since 2003 as you can see.
Anders Eliasson was not a member on this forum by than as you can also see.
So as a guitar builder he was unknown by me in 2003.

( sound like a poem....
[:D]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 11:07:05)

Thanks Peter. You´re a great poet.[:D]

Dinos.
First of all, I´m glad we tuned in.
With respect of the difference in sound between old and new Condes, its pretty simple. New ones are being build by other builder(s) You may like them or not.
I myself never learnt from an old master, so I cant say if there was something he didnt tell me.
Besides, I dont think there really is anything to hide. Its all been said. The difficult thing is to put all your knowledge into a well balanced box with a stick and make sound and play well. Experience is the best way and maybe if you are a bit crazy and like to be alone for hours (days, weeks, month) helps. Besides that it helps to know about music, and it really helps to have a good level of playing yourself. And in the end a ton of dedication is what helps the most in building a good instrument

Some of the sons of good builders that I´ve met, dont really build the same quality as their fathers did (do)
Why. Difficult to say. But here you have a couple of possibilities.: They started building because daddy did so and school was boring. They didnt start building because they really wanted to. They cant stand being in their workshop alone for more than an hour or so. They prefer to be in the street with friends. Andalucian people are very restless and used to company all the time and its not the best mixture for concentration.

Last. You should visit your local builders. I´m sure you´ll get a lot more info out of that. Most of us are very happy to show our guitars or at least some of them to local players. But please understand that its a product made to be sold and if you leave a big ding in the French Polish and walk out of the shop without buying anything, it means a lot of unpayed extra work hours or loss of money.



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 11:30:42)

I couldn't have agreed more. Till I play an Anders I will also be a Gerundino guy.

[;)]
Dinos

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

My Avatar name is gerundino63 since 2003 as you can see.
Anders Eliasson was not a member on this forum by than as you can also see.
So as a guitar builder he was unknown by me in 2003.

( sound like a poem....
[:D]



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 11:39:42)

Hi Anders,

I am also glad you came back to the thread. This makes sense. I guess if my father was a successful business man I would also be a spoiled brat and waste the family fortune with my friends in the streets of Andalucia. Unfortunately my father is a poor Greek farmer that didn't even get the chance to embezzle some German EU funding.

:(
Dinos

quote:


Some of the sons of good builders that I´ve met, dont really build the same quality as their fathers did (do)
Why. Difficult to say. But here you have a couple of possibilities.: They started building because daddy did so and school was boring. They didnt start building because they really wanted to. They cant stand being in their workshop alone for more than an hour or so. They prefer to be in the street with friends. Andalucian people are very restless and used to company all the time and its not the best mixture for concentration.



Ruphus -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 13:23:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elgreco

Unfortunately my father is a poor Greek farmer that didn't even get the chance to embezzle some German EU funding.

:(
Dinos


No wonder. The EU agrar subsidy system has been set up by major agriculture combines, and is beeing sacked accordingly by big companies, whilst small farmers are in fact being screwed over. ( - And their farms then being boughed off by the same companies.)

Just don´t get me going about the mafia sucking-off cockaigne in Brussels, inititated by European gangsters ...
-

As much as I wellcome it that some stores let you alone with their guitars, I wonder how trsuting they are in the same time. For, while I am used to handling cautiously and watching out for no knobs or zips to be in the way, avoiding scratches, I know that many are not of such consideration, banging up guitars within minutes.


What wood is concerned, allow me to quote what I once wrote to a luthier:

quote:

Four years ago I was researching on sunken trunks in northern USA and Canada ( there are many trunks in the south too, but warmer water there won´t promise well conservated findings and the trees there did not have arctic conditions during growth). Some rivers and lakes to this day are full with trunks from 200 years ago and from trees that were up to 400 years and more old. Hard woods as well as conifers, most of a denseness that can hardly be found these days. Many trunks lying in just 2-3 meters depth, most not deeper than 10 meters. An incredible treasure right below one´s hands.

The states until some years ago would even support private salvage, as they wanted the river / lake bottoms to be freed, but now they inquire fees for licenses, eventhough mostly very moderately still.

Someone of the traditional locals even started out retreaving trunks at Lake Michigan. He started with a canu and self-inflating balloons. Today he has a plant and exports worldwide.

After pondering on it, I however came to the assumption that local rednecks in Michigan might probably sabotage any stranger, and that other locations might be turning out of similar difficulties.

A pity. It could have been a very interesting, constructive, rewarding project and adventure.
-

The question on wood quality and aging has been interesting to me since a while.
At times however it confuses me.

...
-

What wood specimens are concerned, I am totally fascinated of Kauri. Not only astonishingly beautiful, but between 4000 and 50 000 years old. ( Can you imagine prehistorical, long since extincted animals once rubbing their backs against these same trees one´s guitar would be made off? I guess, I just could not stop looking at such an hypothetical instrument on a stand, day dreaming.) The sellers in New Zealand stopped replying though, after I had critiszed them for using such unique material for silly furnitures instead of dedicating it all to instrument makers. That way they got pissed and I never obtained the kauri wood that I was dreaming to one day let someone build a guitar of for me. - But meanwhile I am more after aged instruments anyway.)


What makes woods tonal quality seems not really evident yet, despite speculations like e.g. Stradivari´s violines superiority to be partically due to either Yugoslavian maple grown in a small ice age, or for having being mineralized on their tranpsort through seewater down to Cremona etc. - Or that urban myth according to which best tops were recognized through narrow grain.

What sounds plausible to me so far is that density will contribute. And those sunken trunks mentioned above are of trees which in historically primare forest were not only exposed to pretty cold winters, but also in very dense and dark forests ( = slow growing ) like can´t be found these days. ( Let alone trees of centuries of age.)

If I was a luthier, I would certainly have a look for that ressource, as well as for kauri. And if it was just for prehistorical fascination.
- And preventing such unqiue material to be mainly be used for ol´ furnitures!

A good luthier will understand to select from contemporary choice and get the best out of the individual piece in question; but potentially better suited material possibly wouldn´t be hurting his work either.

Ruphus



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Ruphus -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 13:31:28)

Another kauri pic:



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Ruphus -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 13:33:39)

furniture



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Ruphus -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 14:07:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

... and one day they reach the point when they go down. They loose tension in their soundboard and so they loose projection and power. They get tired. (Just like human beings as well) ...


How if that was to be a myth as well?

I don´t believe in it, suggesting that a normally maintained and played guitar ( no insane golpes etc.) has no reason to detoriate.

And Pepe Romero, owner of antique guitars like of Torres, thinks so too, saying:
quote:

No, that is an unfortunate myth. A guitar that is well made, well played, well loved and cared for is not a disposable thing.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/?site_url=145&focus=23

Ruphus



TANúñez -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 15:14:11)

quote:

The new Condes can not be compared with the old Condes. I think these are facts not just my opinion.


This is opinion my friend. How many new and old Condes have you played? I don't think you could even fairly compare these two. What I consider to be "old Condes" would be guitars made by Domingo Esteso. The internal construction has changed so much from his time to the current Conde guitar.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 16:34:38)

Ruphus.
Maybe you´re right and maybe its a myth that guitars get tired with age.

BUT, there are a couple of things going against old guitars.
The soundboard is basically flat. The dome is so small that you cant really talk about egg shape. This means that most guitars start to "dish" in front of the bridge with age. With this I mean that the soundboard start to sink. The bridge and the drag of the strings make this worse. Many old guitars have an S shaped soundboard when seeform the sides. When it starts to do so it looses strength. Especially stell string guitars suffer this because many owners leave them with old strings on and the tension of steel strings rises when they vibrate and get old. It looses its elasticity.
Nylon string guitars dont suffer this as much because the tension is lower and because nylon strings dont get stiffer with age. But I´ve seen few healthy guitar with +40 years and a lot of dead ones.
It can be fixed by taking the back off and replacing the braces of the guitar. But its pretty expensive and few guitar are being fixed this way. It´ll also sound and play very differently when done.
On the string instruments of the Violin family, its done often because its a relatively easy process to take of the back and there´s only 1 brace!!! to change. I´ve done so, and the instrument copletely changes its sound, voice and soul. So it has to be done by someone who really knows. (It wasnt me. I´m not a violin expert. [:D])



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 16:36:19)

Well, I have played a '93 unsigned conde from San Francisco's GSP and the 2010 EF4, EF5, A27 and A28 from NY's luthiermusic. Considering that there are probably, not more than 10 Condes for sale in the whole US currently, I would say that it is a considerable amount. The '93 blew the new Condes out of the water. This experience combined to what I have heard from both my flamenco teachers and other local guitarists here at SF that advised against buying a new A26 and from what I have read in this forum and other forums make me believe it. Heck, even Paco De Lucia stopped using Condes. When too many sensible people share an opinion, then it starts to smell awfully like a fact to me. Plans for trips to Southern California and Madrid Spain are in the works. So soon I will have the opportunity to try a 70s Esteso and a 2010 Esteso reedition. These you can compare, no? I will let you and the forum know what my impression was.

Dinos

quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez

quote:

The new Condes can not be compared with the old Condes. I think these are facts not just my opinion.


This is opinion my friend. How many new and old Condes have you played? I don't think you could even fairly compare these two. What I consider to be "old Condes" would be guitars made by Domingo Esteso. The internal construction has changed so much from his time to the current Conde guitar.



TANúñez -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 16:54:01)

You know Dinos I think that the thought of more people staying away from newer Condes is probably more due to the price. They are very expensive and you can get an older Conde say between 1997 and 2005 for much less and get the same guitar in terms of quality and sound.

You also have to consider the preference of the player. Older Condes in my opinion were gritty and punchy. More "old school" sounding. The modern style Conde produces are more melodic and dynamic sound which goes well with today's style of flamenco. One is not better than the other. Just different. Which do you like?



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 17:22:12)

I have nothing against the new modern versatile flamenco guitars but I definitely prefer the gritty/punchy old-school sound. This may sound artistically immature but I wouldn't use my flamenco guitar to play jazz. I wish I could agree with you that older Conders are less expensive. But unfortunately the latest conde sold at ebay was a 2005 A26 and it had an asking price of $8000 while a new one costs $8800 at luthiermusic. Both Felive V. Here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=330498613734&si=s1L8Q%252BTvIX2q0hV9rOgS5Y0d1H8%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123#ht_500wt_11566


D.



BarkellWH -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 17:32:53)

quote:

When too many sensible people share an opinion, then it starts to smell awfully like a fact to me. Plans for trips to Southern California and Madrid Spain are in the works. So soon I will have the opportunity to try a 70s Esteso and a 2010 Esteso reedition. These you can compare, no? I will let you and the forum know what my impression was.

Dinos


Because many share an opinion about something does not necessarily make it a "fact" at all. Often it simply represents a certain "zeitgeist," a feeling that everyone wants to get on the bandwagon, not wanting to miss out on the latest "new thing." When you state that you will let the forum know what your impression was of the guitars you try out, it will be just that, your impression, i.e., your opinion. It will be neither ground truth nor a fact. It will be your opinion, as equally valid as the opinion of every other member of this forum, even those with whom you disagree.

Cheers,

Bill



elgreco -> RE: New vs Old (Jan. 12 2011 17:53:01)

Well we have veered off from the thread's topic but by definition my opinion is what I perceive to be the fact about something. Just the semantics change. There are millions of computers out there that calculate 1 + 1 to 2. Generations of mathematicians claim that 1+1=2. Even statisticians claim that there is 100% probability that 1+1=2. You may want to call the statement 1+1=2 a zeitgeist, but I call it a fact. Regardless, even if it is not a fact, can I not voice my opinion? My initial assumption set a point of reference. You must have a common reference to start a discussion. The people that do not agree with the reference system could argue against just that or just not participate, and the people that agree with the reference system can voice their corresponding "opinions". I think what happened here was the ideal outcome. My opinion came closer to the center and the other extreme's opinion did the same.

:)
Dinos


quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

When too many sensible people share an opinion, then it starts to smell awfully like a fact to me. Plans for trips to Southern California and Madrid Spain are in the works. So soon I will have the opportunity to try a 70s Esteso and a 2010 Esteso reedition. These you can compare, no? I will let you and the forum know what my impression was.

Dinos


Because many share an opinion about something does not necessarily make it a "fact" at all. Often it simply represents a certain "zeitgeist," a feeling that everyone wants to get on the bandwagon, not wanting to miss out on the latest "new thing." When you state that you will let the forum know what your impression was of the guitars you try out, it will be just that, your impression, i.e., your opinion. It will be neither ground truth nor a fact. It will be your opinion, as equally valid as the opinion of every other member of this forum, even those with whom you disagree.

Cheers,

Bill



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