Chord question

Chord question (Full Version)

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Pimientito -> Chord question (Jan. 2 2011 9:33:45)
Im sure some of you are going to think Im a bit of a dunce or going a bit senile but Im having problems naming this chord. here it is -8- -7- -5- -5- -0- -x- Because of the A bass I assumed it was a variation of A but it didnt make any sense having C and F# above it. Then I thought that maybe the bass was not the root after all so how about the next note of C. This makes a chord of C maj b5 with an A in the bass (Cb5/A) but the inversion sounds a bit diminished to my ear with the C and F# next to each other. My question is can you name this chord only as Cb5/A or can you call it an A diminished. How do work out the root of the chord in any given inversion? (please bear in mind i dont have a degree in music with your answers -thanx)

Marco de Rueil -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 2 2011 12:26:30)
Hi Pimientito, I'd rather call it myself a Dsus4 with A in the basses, noting that you have F#, A, C, which really sounds D7, and this G which is a little bit singular :) Dsus4 is D F# G A C, so it sounds correct :) (D absent but not a problem :)) Marco de Rueil http://www.youtube.com/user/MarcodeRueil?feature=mhum

johnguitars -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 2 2011 12:45:42)
I used this program to identify it: http://www.daccordmusic.com/eng/site/application.php?idProduto=31&idParceiro=2 And I agree with the program in that it can be3 called (among other things) a: Am7(13)

Ricardo -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 2 2011 14:18:41)
You need to understand that a scale and a 13 chord are the same thing so you have to realize how the notes in a chord are stacked up in thirds. To have a proper chord you need a root, 3rd, and some kind of other note, either 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, or 13th. (because when stacking intervals we can't use 2,4,6 of the scale, those occur when building chords as "extensions", 9,11,13). So to find the root, stack the notes and discover which is the strongest. the 5th can be missing, but not the ROOT or the 3rd (unless you have a bass instrument playing the root but lets assume you don't). AGCF#C....so ignore the extra C for now. AGCF#....the only 3rd relations are A-C and F#-A. So since A is the bass start with A as the root: ACG (1,b3,b7) which is an Am7 chord (minus the 5th which is almost always ok). The F# note would be the #6th as you would have in a Dorian scale. But the chord we build as 1-3-5-7-9-11-13. So it is Am7-13...and the 7 is redundant or implied so you name it simply Am13. And you have the scale implied as well....A dorian. If I tried to spell the chord with the other third relation.....F#-A...we have a not so strong chord structure:F#-A-C-G....1,b3,b5,b9....so F#m(7)b5b9/A.....a much too complicated name for an inverted Am13, the implied scale is F# locrian (relative of A dorian or G major and B phrygian....a clue to possible flamenco palo). Lower common denominator is usually the way to go, but CONTEXT could change things. Ricardo

Pimientito -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 2 2011 21:32:28)
Thanks guys for taking time to answer this. So Amin13 seems likes the best nomenclature. Ricardo. I understand that the chord needs a root and third to be a chord. However if the chord was a Cb5 than the first notes would be C, F#, G and C. I think this type of chord is quite ambiguous. Would you consider ever consider the C as the root? I completely agree that F#m(7)b5b9/A is way too complicated though :D BTW- the context of the chord is prio to a change to B major

Ricardo -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 3 2011 19:44:45)
quote: understand that the chord needs a root and third to be a chord. However if the chord was a Cb5 than the first notes would be C, F#, G and C. I think this type of chord is quite ambiguous. Would you consider ever consider the C as the root? CF#G=1-#4-5. Csus#4. A sus chord (either sus 2 or sus 4) is a chord that is suspending the 3rd interval to create a special unresolved tension. Idea is that it should resolve to the major third (E in this case) the next chord...but in pop music and such it is not a requirement. Ricardo

Chiste de Gales -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 12:02:04)
It looks like there is consensus this time about this chord, but you should always consider the CONTEXT. The key and mode of the music should always be considered before trying to figure out a chord's name. Starting here will tell you what a chord is "supposed" to be, and the notes that dont fit in give themselves away as alterations.

Estevan -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 18:29:43)
A variant of A minor is the obvious solution, but I see it in a less sophisticated (or more straight-forward) way than Ricardo, because as Chiste says, context is important, and not every note that's piled on top of others is necessarily part of the chord. In this case (knowing only that it's going to B major), it's just an Am7: -(8)- -5- -5- -5- -0- -x- ...and the F# is simply an ornament of the E (5th fret on 2) or an anticipation of the F# in the chord that follows. To call it a 13th is an unnecessary complication for me, although I understand that it makes more sense to people with a jazz background. If you play these examples it should be clear. (And you have a nice modal cadence). As Ricardo says, ignore the extra C for now (on the top string): -x----------- -7---5----4- -5---------4- -5---------4- -0---------x- -x---------7- ----------------- -x----------- -7---5----7- -5---------8- -5---------9- -0---------9- -x---------7- ------------------ ...and then if you add the top string to that one: -8---------7- -7---5----7- -5---------8- -5---------9- -0---------9- -x---------7- --------------------------------- p.s. what happened to that nice TAB function that Simon made for us? I can't find the instructions.

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El Kiko -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 19:31:56)
More likely to be called E6 flat 9 as saying E 13 would imply a seventh (D or D#) is present. But really the notes present in that chord are the notes of C# maj.(inversion) even though C# may not be the root. Like C#/E meaning C#Major over an E bass. many chords in jazz have this kind of format and it can quickly identify what may otherwise have a complex name. Some common ones would be D min/G...(Dminor over G bass) Fmaj/A.....(Fmaj over A bass) Emaj/A.....(Emaj over A bass) Gmin/Ab...(Gminor over Ab bass) to name a few, a whole harmony that would other wise be laborious to describe can be simplified by using this system sometimes refered to as Disp-placed roots.

Estevan -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 19:43:11)
quote: But really the notes present in that chord are the notes of C# maj.(inversion) Could be, but only when taken out of context while ignoring melodic elements; that's the point.

El Kiko -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 20:19:44)
Not exactly out of context as I am assuming that the E bass is the tonality and therefore resolves, but yes in terms of if you had the whole chord progression then you could better place it in context, I agree. however I think you see that naming the bass note aside from the chord really simplifies the question of name........ like....... ---3-------- ---3-------- ---4--------- ---5--------- ---0--------- ---5--------- is Gmaj/A (G major over A bass) although it is funtioning as an A chord , meaning that it will resolve after this to D maj (V,I) rather than being a G chord resolving to C , and in any case I just think that if you named it as an G type chord ( G sus 2 or whatever ) its not as quick to grasp and it easier to see that we are in the key of D maj ... or maybe I'm just used to seeing this kind of stuff. The point is the easier the name the quicker you will get the music as oppose to letting it get in the way. ... if you get what I mean........

Ricardo -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 20:57:51)
quote: By using this shape and their ear, new harmonies (thanks to Paco and others) began to emerge. Hey romerito! I know you hate me when I contradict you, but..... The melodic minor scale conflicts with that chord voicing cuz of the G#vs G natural. True Paco uses that scale but deliberately avoids voicing the G# in any of his chord forms when such a scale is his intent. D Double harmonic is often things I have seen Paco and others do as you tabbed, and fits better that chord voicing as it has that G#....but the name of the scale is not what I have heard used. For me D double harmonic (minor)would have a Bb not B natural, so 12b3#45b67.....The scale you wrote I have heard called A harmonic major-12345b67....based on the 5th mode in this case. Jazz guys may think mixolydian flat 6 but I have not heard that term persay. And as the Rico kiko said, E6(b9) is the simple way to write it. If we did voice a D note (7th) then it is fine to call it E13(b9) too. I agree with Estevan, in Context of flamenco sometimes it is silly to describe all extensions etc as if it is jazz harmony function. The extensions could be incidental because of voicing, Left hand technique or barre chord, or open string even. I have often stated using this terminology for flamenco is not really appropriate....yet I felt compelled to answer Pimientito's question as it was on the face. What is a "proper" name for the chord and how I came up with that. quote: But really the notes present in that chord are the notes of C# maj.(inversion) even though C# may not be the root. Like C#/E meaning C#Major over an E bass. Not really. You have the 7th, the B note. So C#7/E....but also you have E again in the high voice, so C#7#9/E.....in jazz and rock etc we know the proper voicing for such a chord is not as tabbed out...so the tab actually gives us a better context so we come up with a better name I think (E6b9 as discussed). I do agree sometimes when chords move with a pedal bass note, it is good to use that slash method to be clear. quote: ---3-------- ---3-------- ---4--------- ---5--------- ---0--------- ---5--------- is Gmaj/A (G major over A bass) although it is funtioning as an A chord , meaning that it will resolve after this to D maj (V,I) rather than being a G chord resolving to C , Easier one I am used to seeing is A11....but I would have played the top E string open in the voicing. G/A is fine for me but it need not go to D maj necessarily. More often this just goes to A7...and THEN to D. So functioning more like a IV chord usually with the 5th as a pedal. Ricardo

El Kiko -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 21:34:59)
Sure I see what you mean the only reason I said resolving to D maj was to clarify context ( as mentioned by estevan) otherwise you just have an isolated chord with no particular function, this way it has a better defined job ( context) in Jazz there is a good chance it would go to D maj under normal circumstances , it was just an example really of giving a easier names to what could be nightmare chords.. As you mentioned , Pedaling a bass note would have this effect and the chords would be easier to name this way.. In jazz tabs are never used it would be written like that if the voicing is not so important otherwise you'd be reading it on manuscript as is so often the case. Also I would be playing many chords that do not have roots or 5ths as in the jazz combo , piano or bass would have them so I wouldn't double up a typical II-V-I in F maj might be ---5-------------5------------5------------------------ ---6-------------5------------5---------------------- ---7-------------7------------5--------------------- ---8-------------8------------7------------------- ---x--------------x------------8------------------- ---x--------------x------------x-------------------- the first chord are the extension of a Gmin chord and the seconed chord C7 even though there are no roots , this is the context I mean , and its minimal finger movement ( but thats cos I'm Lazy)

Ricardo -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 21:44:36)
quote: In jazz tabs are never used it would be written like that if the voicing is not so important otherwise you'd be reading it on manuscript as is so often the case. Also I would be playing many chords that do not have roots or 5ths as in the jazz combo , piano or bass would have them so I wouldn't double up a typical II-V-I in F maj might be ---5-------------5------------5------------------------ ---6-------------5------------5---------------------- ---7-------------7------------5--------------------- ---8-------------8------------7------------------- ---x--------------x------------8------------------- ---x--------------x------------x-------------------- the first chord are the extension of a Gmin chord and the seconed chord C7 even though there are no roots , this is the context I mean , and its minimal finger movement ( but thats cos I'm Lazy) Totally with you...groovy man. But most of the questions about chords on here will be applying to flamenco, not jazz...so it can be assumed we don't have a bass player playing roots and 5ths to keep it clear. Anyway I would still better name your chords, even in jazz context, with bass included on G then C: Gm9, C13, ? (until you give me the bass note....). With no bass player it is clearly Bbmaj7, Bbmaj7(#11), F major7. We keep saying context makes all the difference. so I leave it at that.

El Kiko -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 21:50:49)
Yes sorry , I deviated into a non- flamenco world there , however harmony is harmony ,,,,,, I should probably get back to doing tremolo practice, my real enemy !!!

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Ricardo -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 4 2011 23:05:48)
quote: Tonal I-V Flamenco I-II. In using that first scale one can play a II harmony as in Riqueni's solea. When you resolve, the third must be altered for the tonic chord, but there are plenty of examples where one scale is used for the majority of the compas and another is introduced at the end. ALCALA from Riqueni is an example of the melodic minor. --1-3-1-0-----------------0------------------------ --0--------3-2-0----------0-------------------- --2----------------2-0-----1---------------------- --3---------------------3--2--------------------- --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- I am with you on that. But when paco does it over the E chord, it is a different harmony, he avoids the major third of the chord so you have Mode 2 of D melodic, but the third played melodically give an E minor quality to the chord. Above I would say the harmony is different, it is an Fmajor (#11), scale makes it a maj7#5, so the mode is really F Augmented lydian (mode 3 of D melodic). I am talking as if a jazz guy was looking at the chord and scale as separate entities, not "the flamenco key of E". But if what followed was more of the same scale with an E major chord and bass note, I would tend to agree but you would still be hearing the G# against a G natural. In the end the main point is the color that the C# gives to the phrygian mode is very "impressionistic" and ultimately jazzy sounding. He borrows this sound from Falla, who was influenced by flamenco anyway. [;)]

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Ricardo -> RE: Chord question (Jan. 5 2011 8:37:12)
quote: ORIGINAL: romerito Do you think some of these scales were used before Paco? My personal feeling is that Paco gets credit (deservedly so) for so much, but that there may have been others also exploring ideas. It's not like Flamenco didn't have its rebels before, Montoya for example. Siguiriyas of Morao goes into a bit of mixolydian then back to phrygian somehow, and that stuff he plays is not totally his own, comes from javier Molina so I thought. Parrilla de jerez also used the F# a lot in bulerias por medio, but not sure if he did that long before paco or not. I doubt he was copying paco, more vice versa I would think, but can't say for sure. Paco stuck Falla's melody (fire dance I think?) right into his bulerias almost note for note that uses those modes. More than anything that was a cool sound and idea. But where did Falla get the idea from? He was into flamenco but was it unique to use those modal ideas or did he hear a guitarist do it? Perhaps he just borrowed from the traditional fandango type lead-in arpegios that use that note as leading tone. (in E phrygian we hear BCEDC#DCBA all the time). Maybe Falla just liked that passing note and used it modally? Could be a cool thing to hunt down. Augmented lydian or mode 2 of melodic minor used in flamenco guitar....earliest examples.....here is the melody paco uses a lot in bulerias and other pieces, but also note that Escudero borrowed from the strings backing for his Impetu:

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