lattice bracing for flamenco? (Full Version)

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marciero -> lattice bracing for flamenco? (Dec. 9 2010 12:32:16)

I'm new here; sorry if this has been covered.

I have been reading about lattice bracing on another forum, but was curious about its use specifically for flamenco. It seems that it lacks the percussiveness needed for flamenco. Is this the general consensus? On the other hand Glen Canin builds a sort of hybrid fan/lattice flamenco guitar...

I am an acoustic jazz and tango player but new to the nylon string world. I am also interested in flamenco. I played a lattice-braced Cervantes that really blew me away. I did not know a nylon string could be so loud. It was plenty sweet, too. I am also looking at Castillo guitars which seem pretty cheap, but will not get to play one before ordering that.

Mike



marciero -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Dec. 9 2010 12:44:39)

I'm thinking the ultra-thin tops often used with this design would also be a problem for flamenco. The Cervantes, I believe, is more traditional thickness.
Mike



Tam DL -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 1 2011 2:08:39)

There are at least two types of LB there are the Smallman derived ones, speaker cone like, that use the carbon fiber bracing, extremely thinned boards etc... There are the ones that seem an extension of the X brace, filled in, often all natural materials. I think either has been adapted to steel string, so I don't think there is a structural problem.

Two other potential problems are whether the average flamenco player dreams of a 30 K guitar, or a more segmented number of available choices, including a raft of next great thing scientific models. Would flamenco support that direction. I don't know. The other is that the current LB classical has been developed to produce certain results, you can track down John Williams discussing his needs online. Those are not the objectives of the flamenco guitar. Williams had to be convinced to abandon his Fletta. He had to have a reason. What is missing in the current flamenco guitar that would gratify a top professional, and get the ball rolling?



KMMI77 -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 1 2011 3:40:55)

quote:

There are at least two types of LB there are the Smallman derived ones, speaker cone like, that use the carbon fiber bracing, extremely thinned boards etc


A little off topic but a friend of mine is making some fantastic guitars with carbon fibre bracing. I want one but they are out of my price range for now.

http://www.litchfieldguitars.com/litchfield.html



Guest -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 1 2011 9:40:14)

Interesting point
recently a friend of mine made a 'reyes' guitar for his friends birthday.
The luthier is well known for his lattice braced guitars internationally but decided on traditional bracing for the flamenco..stunning guitar!..
i'll try to nail him down over the next few weeks and ask him why he choose the traditional over carbon fibre...
http://www.redgateguitars.com/Redgate_Guitars/Welcome.html



keith -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 3 2011 23:15:23)

Tam DL raised a good point--what would a lattice braced flamenca provide that is currently missing? and at what thickness of the top? i suspect a thin top would end up being a quick version of willie nelson's guitar that has a big hole in it?



Tam DL -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 4 2011 9:36:37)

So true.

I didn't mean to imply there wouldn't be anything they could do, just that as far as the current project in classical performance is concerned there are specific reasons, that may or not translate. And as you point out there are what might be new demands on a lattice braced system, though unless you are striking the guitar far from the bridge, it might actually be stronger, and have a very different tone, since the top is extensively braced.

Also, if I could just wander off down my own path of prejudice, I love the Spanish guitar, but part of what holds it back (if anything actually is), is possibly it's Spanishness. Classical music has roots in many countries, but in performance there is a kind of dignified veneer, the black dress, the visual tone of the various instruments, heck the lack of NASCAR like advertising. Then there is the Spanish guitar, it sometimes feels a little like a guy in a kilt with bagpipes. Builders and players, at the margin, have tried to move away from that. Playing Bach test pieces, and with guitars like Kasha and maybe the Smallman sound if not look. So far Spanishness is winning.

Anyway, I don't see a trend to undercut the Spanishness of Flamenco. It remains fully branded, vibrant, pulsing. Does it need a classical guitar, meaning a guitar that like the violin or the piano, has origins, but many countries?

Just my little bit of nonsense.



Ricardo -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 5 2011 4:12:52)

quote:

I have been reading about lattice bracing on another forum, but was curious about its use specifically for flamenco. It seems that it lacks the percussiveness needed for flamenco. Is this the general consensus?


Let me put it this way as a player. I read ramirez III's book. He has a very short chapter on his flamenco guitars. He was into experimenting a lot with his classical guitars, and I would say possible inspired other builders at least with the idea to explore physics and such and try out things on players. But when it came to flamenco, when ever he tried to get away with something new, he got feedback like "wow, nice guitar... but it's not flamenco"... so with that he kept going back to traditional models and finally realized that there was not much point to all the fancy experimenting.

It seems once you get deeper into flamenco sound and techniques, there is a certain type of guitar we need that feels "right" and responds the right way, so we tend to gravitate to the "standard model" flamenco...whatever it may be.

Carrillo is a great sounding guitar that feels and responds VERY "flamenco"....whatever that means.[;)][:D]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 5 2011 15:39:06)

quote:

I have been reading about lattice bracing on another forum, but was curious about its use specifically for flamenco. It seems that it lacks the percussiveness needed for flamenco. Is this the general consensus? On the other hand Glen Canin builds a sort of hybrid fan/lattice flamenco guitar...


A guitar maker friend of mine uses a lot of lattice technique for his classical guitars but seems to think that traditional fan braces are better for flamenco. I have a tendency to agree since I've built traditional flamenco guitars since 1958.

There is a certain feel to the fan brace models that says it all. BTW Glen is also a friend of mine; he buys some of his rosettes from me. I believe he is quickly becoming a great guitar maker.

However, I think the players will determine what we will build in future considerations. But as for me, I'm staying with the traditional fan braced styles, as this is what I like to play on.



beno -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 6 2011 8:32:03)

quote:

Carrillo is a great sounding guitar that feels and responds VERY "flamenco"....whatever that means


hey Ricardo I bet You meant Castillo! [:)]



Guest -> RE: lattice bracing for flamenco? (Jan. 7 2011 1:09:12)

word back from jim is although he makes double top/kevla/lattice braced classicals etc when making the flamenco negra the traditional bracing etc was chosen for the reasons stated above...this does'nt mean there maybe future experimentation's but was looking for a 'flamenco' sound in the instrument, seems the reyes blueprint was a sure thing...let you know if any prototypes or hybrids are made...



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