THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Full Version)

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JBASHORUN -> THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 17 2005 15:51:21)

Hi again everyone,
I'm still waiting for my new Flamenco guitar to arrive... as soon as it does, I'll start my lessons with a professional Flamenco guitarist. In the mean time, I've been doing a bit of practice (just on a classical guitar).
Here's the problem... I've only been playing Flamenco techniques for a few weeks, and already my hand (right) is hurting. This is mainly because I've been doing a lot of Rasgueado work. I usually practice it for a few hours at a time, but allow regular breaks to let my hands recover. However, the pain is still there... every time I open and close my hand, there is a slight uncomfortable feeling just between the knuckles of the middle, ring and little fingers. Is this supposed to happen? Obviously my hands are new to this technique, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the lack of previously using the muscles so intensely. But on the other hand (no pun intended!), I don't want to do myself any serious injuries through repetitive strain or anything like that (I've heard some guitarists have badly damaged the tendons in their hands due to repeated movements, and have had to stop playing) [:(]
I thought perhaps it might be due to me doing the technique incorrectly, so I'm considering ordering a book called "The Art Of Rasgueado" see link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0786649224/qid=1108646696/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-1192782-0244653?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Apparently, this is a good book, which focuses mainly on doing the Rasgueado. If anyone is familiar with it, please let me know if it is worth getting.
Anyway, is it normal for my hand to hurt after practising the technique for the first few days? As usual, any informed opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much.


James

By the way, I also read somewhere that some people use "nail glue" to harden their nails and make playing easier... is this true, and is it worth looking into for a beginner?



Jamey -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 17 2005 18:42:43)

You're over doing it. Practising for a few hours on just rasgueados when your hands haven't yet been developed is a recipe for disaster. You ligaments, tendons and muscles in your fingers of your right had will have to be built up over time. Practice the techniques slowly and try very hard NOT to over exert yourself while striking the strings. Too much tension in the hand and fingers won't help get you a more forceful sound. The various rasqueado techniques require the hand and fingers to be relatively loose and only tensing up just enough and in just the right instances during the movement. This takes time to figure out so you will naturally over do it in the beginning. Just be careful not to strain your hand. It sounds like you've strained it a bit. I would take a break from trying to play for a bit until the pain that you're feeling goes away. Then start up again but take it slow and not for lengthy periods of time. Try rasgueado for a little while, then move on to tremolo, then picado or some thumb work. Work on a solea phrase or something, but don't try to spend hours doing the same technique because even with breaks, you're over taxing your hand.



duende -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 17 2005 20:46:04)

I hurt my arm when i learned to play rasgueados. I was druming away on everything from beer cans to books and of course my guitar. I over did it. Don´t play rasgueados for 10-15min
in a whole day if your not use to it. Work on your thumb or arpegios instead.
And never ever do an I C A M I rasgueado the combo I and then pinky is a good way to make tension in your hand.


Henrik



Miguel de Maria -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 17 2005 21:42:09)

Henrik,
sometimes I use c i i for a 3 note repeating ras. Have you tried this one? It is good for a delicate sound, although you can of course be ferociously loud with the c too if you work it up.



duende -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 17 2005 22:33:01)

I do the same but with a i i. or i m i. Very good for self accompanyment behind the melodie.

Henrik



Skai -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 17 2005 23:32:40)

My goodness, A few hours a day is crazy! Even with regular breaks, that's still far to much rasguedo work. Rasguedos use the extensor muscles of your finger and that part is barely used when you move your fingers. I mean, most of the time you squeeze your fingers shut and not force them open right?

Personally I feel that a book will never show you exactly how to do it but your teacher, however, will point out mistakes and give you tips.

Just work on all the various techniques, allocating time for all of them, instead of spending so much time on rasguedos. What about picado, alzapua etc? Work on them too.

Cheston



eslastra -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 0:40:57)

I'd say the best thing to do for now is stop playing rasgueados for a few weeks in order to give your hand some time to recover. You're very fortunate to have a professional flamenco teacher you can learn directly from. He/She will be able to tell within seconds of observing whether you are executing properly or not. Hand injuries are things you don't mess around with because they can take a very long time to heal and sometimes they don't heal. My problem is not with my right hand, but with my left hand [:o] I've had to stop playing for as long as a year and I'm just now getting back to where I can enjoy playing again.

One bit of advice I can give regarding rasgueado practice is in the beginning, do not force power to get volume. There's a tendency to want to play loud and powerful too early on. This is a sure way to damage the tendons. The hand must be developed carefully over time to develop the proper neuromuscular coordination so that the hand can work efficiently.



eslastra -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 0:53:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: duende


And never ever do an I C A M I rasgueado the combo I and then pinky is a good way to make tension in your hand.


Henrik


Hmmm, I must be one of the lucky ones as that rasgueado is one that I play most often, especially if I want to fill a space of more than 2 beats. That rasgueado was developed by Juan Serrano from whom I learned it. It took me years to develop it and was not an easy rasgueado to learn. But once I learned it, it was actually easier to execute than any other rasgueado. It's actually less strenuous on the hand than any of the other rasgueados like a-m-i-i, etc.



Skai -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 5:14:21)

Actually the rasguedo with the index finger leading isn't all that difficult or strenuous when done correctly. It helps with timing and I've both variationsat my disposal. Just don't over do thing and attempt to get power, speed and volume at this moment. Just focus on getting used to even timing and the general movement, then develop strength slowly.

Cheston



duende -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 5:25:38)

im sure that i c a m i practice did hurt my hand. If i had a teacher to learn from i belive that i wouldn´t have hurt my self. what can i say everybody´s diffrent.[:)] When i found out about the a m i i and the c a m i i i all just became so easy and realaxed. But thats just me..

Henrik



Skai -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 8:19:46)

True, everyone's different. And anway, isn't flamenco about doing our own thing? Maybe I didn't strain my hand because I had already learnt c a m i before I bought the Juan Serrano book.. [:D] Probably gave my hand lots of time to gain strength and I easily adjusted to i c a m i later on.

Sheesh I'm replying each time someone else replies LOL Must be because I'm bored at work [:D] But I'll hold on.. Just for that flamenco guitar I want..

Cheston



JBASHORUN -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 10:20:45)

Thanks guys... your advice so far has been helpful. I fear you may be right about overdoing it, but it's a fine balance between perfecting the technique and doing too much. However, my hand has now gotten slightly worse... yesterday (before anyone had replied to my post) I had my usual guitar lesson. It was a 40 minute lesson, and we spent at least half of that practising Rasgueados over a metronome backing. As I am still waiting for the Graf Martinez tuition book to arrive, we are working from the Mel Bay/Juan Serrano book, and the Rasgueados we did were all "index;little finger;anular;m;index" type. I did tell my teacher my hand was a little sore from the technique, and he was careful to allow my hand to rest regularly by alternating techniques, and also asked me frequently whether my hand was okay. Despite a little twinge of pain, I thought it was. However, later that evening, my hand had appeared to swell up... small bumps in between the knuckles of each finger. I put some Deap Heat gel on the area to help the soreness. But it is now the next morning, and the hand is still slightly swollen. I don't think it's worth going to the doctor for (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think, as another member said, I should stop practising Rasgueados for a few weeks (which is a shame, as I was just starting to make some progress). But I suppose my health comes first... I'll let my hand recover, and practice some scales and arpeggios, etc. Then perhaps when my new guitar arrives, and I have the pro teacher I'll try the technique again. Let me know if any of you have any further advice. Thanks.



PacoPaella -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 11:28:10)

If you overdo it (and you do if it starts to hurt or burn), you risk a tendosynovitis which might permantly disable you to play guitar. I know cases where the victims were unable to play longer than five minutes without bad pain. And yes, i would go see a doctor. After all you may need your hand to do your regular job, whatever it is.



Escribano -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 11:51:40)

quote:

I put some Deap Heat gel on the area to help the soreness


Swelling responds well to coolness e.g. a bag of frozen peas in a tea-towel. Deep Heat is worse than useless and may even make it worse. My two cents. Go see the doctor or else you'll be in steroid injections before you know it.

Take it easy, no rush - try picado and scales for a while.



eslastra -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 12:26:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

I put some Deap Heat gel on the area to help the soreness


Swelling responds well to coolness e.g. a bag of frozen peas in a tea-towel. Deep Heat is worse than useless and may even make it worse. My two cents. Go see the doctor or else you'll be in steroid injections before you know it.

Take it easy, no rush - try picado and scales for a while.


Those are all good suggestions. There are plenty of other right hand flamenco techniques that can be worked on while waiting for the hand to recover. Rule is still the same, don't overdo it. [:@]



eslastra -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 12:44:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN

But it is now the next morning, and the hand is still slightly swollen. I don't think it's worth going to the doctor for (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think, as another member said, I should stop practising Rasgueados for a few weeks (which is a shame, as I was just starting to make some progress). But I suppose my health comes first... I'll let my hand recover, and practice some scales and arpeggios, etc.


If pain and swelling is occurring a day after, that's not a good sign. Good health always comes first. Definitely have a doctor look at it and if the pain continues, don't settle for just taking pain killers as that only masks the pain that is always there. As hard and depressing as it was for me to do, a prolonged break from playing really did help rehabilitate my left hand. So take care of that hand and good luck with the doctor.



Jamey -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 13:47:43)

A physiotherapist or a sports injury specialist will have a better understanding of what's going on in your hand. A doctor will more than likely simply prescribe anti-inflammatory medicine which will only mask the problem. A good doctor will refer you to one. If it's a joint trauma issue, then cold is better than heat as heat will induce further inflammation and may promote scar tissue formation within the affected joint areas (and this is bad).

Definitly take a break. Just stop altogether for a while because from the sounds of it, you've over done it and now your hand is injured. Hands take a while to heal and in order to be able to play for many years from now, it's worth it to stop playing for a month or more while you tend to your hand (and have someone trained in injury treatment working on it for you so that it heals properly).



rickm -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 16:43:34)

two cents, when I first did ras, I did so with great vogor, thought I did not experience hand pain, I like you questioned that approach. At one point I had lessons from a professional flamenco guitarist who informed me that most ras, at least 4 and 5 stroke is done as a subtle punctuation. It is through practice that the seperateness of stroke sounds dynamic, not the force. Ras is used as an strong embellishment to accent lets say a ending phrase, but most is a relaxed brush of strings. here is one exercise that was taught to me that might help the hand situation. rest you thumb on the top e string, flick out the pinkie, relax the whole hand, then flick the a finger, relax hand, then m, relax, then i, relax and begin again. I might be wrong and it is a wild guess, but the discomfort your are experiencing is either the force employed against unwilling tendons or the inability of the hand to relax and then fatigue. ras is characterized by seperatness of strike and maintaining that is the hard part. strike, relax strike relax and it should at least be more comforting. also, I use the tips of the nails when i strike so it makes for a click click click click rather than a purcussive cliiiiiiiick hope this explains.



JBASHORUN -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 18 2005 17:07:46)

Thanks again guys... the advice is appreciated! As I said before, my current teacher is not the best judge of whether I'm doing the technique 100% correctly. But in a few weeks my hand will (hopefully) be recovered, my new guitar will have arrived, and I will start with the pro teacher who can tell me whether my technique is part of what's causing the problem.
As for the sore swollen hand... fortunately, I'm in between jobs at the moment, so I don't have to use my hand/s too intensely (other than practising the guitar). I've booked an appointment with the doctor. Monday afternoon was the soonest they can do, so I'll keep the hand on ice until then. Some of you seem to think I should press for more than just painkillers (or rather an alternative), so I'll mention that to him and see what he says. No doubt, though, he will tell me (like all of you) to take it easy with the guitar playing for a while. Just opening and closing the fingers on my right hand still hurts a bit, so I'm definately not gonna do any more Rasgueados for at least a week or 2... maybe more. However, my usual guitar lesson is once a week, and I'd like to think that I don't have to stop playing (and practising) COMPLETELY. So (correct me again if you think it's a bad idea) I might still play a few less strenuous techniques... like some scales. Although for Flamenco, I still have to use my plucking fingers, so I'm not sure if it would irritate the situation further. If need be, I could probably go back to playing just the electric guitar (until my hand recovers) which would be using a plectrum/pick, and so might be less harmful. Thanks again for the advice folks... let me know if you have any more of it to offer.


James



Jon Boyes -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 21 2005 9:02:52)

Scary stuff.

I'll be straight, as I think you need it.

If you actually want to be able to play that guitar when it arrives, stop practicing rasgueados (or anything else, IMO), stop taking advice from a teacher who clearly does not know what they are talking about, and may actually be contributing to your injury.

You are on the fast track to some form of RSI. Some forms of RSI need operations to put right, BTW. The more you ignore what is happening, the longer the recovery time will be. Forget about what 'progress' you think you may have made already - reading your posts above, I will bet it is is time wasted spent practicing something incorrectly anyway.

Listen to what James is saying above, it is good advice.

If you want to invest time in flamenco, invest it in listening: get hold of as much flamenco as you can, familiarise yourself with the sounds of the different palos (styles), learn some basic palmas if you can, there is plenty you can do whilst your hand recovers.

Jon



Jamey -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 21 2005 14:18:50)

James, stop playing altogether. Give your hand a rest completely. Do NOT revert to any kind of playing regardless because you've done some damage there that will not "ease itself out". I've had hand injuries that didn't heal properly and required surgery afterwards to correct. It is a real issue here.

If you are icing your hand (which you should be doing), there are some rules to icing that you should follow:

1. don't apply the ice pack directly to the skin, rather, wrap it in a damp towel (a dish drying towel usually works well)

2. only apply the ice pack for maximum of 20 minutes to the affected area, then allow 1 hour for the area to fully warm up again before reapplying the ice.

THIS SECOND POINT IS VERY IMPORTANT!!!! Even though your hand will feel warm prior to that, the bones and denser tissues (like tendons) are still chilled internally and take longer to warm up. If you ice for longer than 20 minutes or if you reapply the ice pack too soon after the last session, your body will automatically try to heat the area up because your hyperthermic response will kick in. I.E. your body will think you are outside in sub zero temperatures and will start to send blood to the area that you iced for too long or didn't allowed to warm up fully. When this happens, you can actually make things worse because your body's efforts to warm the area will cause inflammation that will be worse than if you had not iced at all.

I worked in a sports injury clinic as a physiotherapist's aid for 4 years. I've iced a lot of injuries of all kinds. I've seen what happens when people don't take proper care of ligament, tendon and joint injuries. Believe me, breaking a bone is much easier to deal with and heal.



JBASHORUN -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 21 2005 17:22:37)

Thanks again guys... your advice is appreciated. I've just got back from the doctor, and as you predicted, she wasn't very helpful. She prescribed "Diclofenac Misoprostol" tablets, which are painkillers. She said she wasn't able to offer any advice regarding what to do about playing, other than to go easy for a few weeks. She said it was my guitar teacher's job to know what technique I should perform and for how long I should practise it (so I think I'll wait for the professional Flamenco teacher rather than carry on with my current one). Although she did say that it was common sense not to practise the same technique for excessive periods.
On the positive side, my hand seems to be improving... the swelling is gone, as is most of the pain, with just a slight bit of discomfort between the knuckles of the middle and ring fingers. It is still uncomfortable when I try and do a rasgueado, though, so obviously I won't be doing any for a while. As for other stuff, I'll try and avoid using the fingers on my right hand. I'll take Jon's advice and do more listening and theory work.
Unfortunately, I can't afford to visit a Physiotherapist at the moment, and my doctor seemed to think the injury wasn't serious enough to refer me to one (at least in the condition that my hand is in at the moment). But I will bear what you have said in mind. I appear to have been quite lucky, and with sufficient rest, my hand should be recovered in a few weeks. Thanks again.



James



Thomas Whiteley -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 21 2005 23:34:50)

quote:

The Art Of Rasgueado


The author of the Rasgueado book, Ioannis Anastassakis, was a student of Juan Serrano, as were a few of us on this forum. The book shows how many different rasgueado various were performed by different artists. On my web site you will find “101Rasgueados”. It is a collection of right hand patterns for flamenco guitar.

I have never practiced rasgueados for longer than ten minutes. In fact within that time frame I will have done many different variations.

When you start playing flamenco guitar you should never over do it! Build up from 1-4 repetitions of a rasgueado. Do it once a day for the first week. If there is no pain increase the number of reasgueado patterns by one each week.

Go slow and concentrate on a clear even sound. Use little pressure and do not stress anything!!!

As for No Pain No Gain – that is a good moto – if you want to be Governator of California! [:D] Remember that pain is the bodies way to let you know something is wrong!

I have been weight lifting for 48 years and playing flamenco for over 45 years with no injuries. I practice what I preach!

You will find that 85% of all teachers (regardless of subject matter) are incompetent! Do not expect a flamenco guitar teacher to lay out a regiment of how long or how many times to practice anything.

Do not expect to put in long hours at the beginning of your learning process to make up for “lost time"! You could well destroy your hand in the process!

By the way playing accompaniment for dancers can be dangerous! I knew a guy who destroyed his right hand and no longer plays guitar. All this trying to play loud. He could break strings. Playing fast and loud is really impressive until…

DO NOT USE NAIL GLUE! Do not worry about hardening your nails at this time. Let your right hand heal first and then come back with that question.

For now REST!!!



Jon Boyes -> [Deleted] (Feb. 22 2005 8:06:24)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 22 2005 15:24:13



duende -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 22 2005 8:17:06)

Im also a teacher. And i would say that either you can teach or you don´t. Most teachers i´ve had (music and regular subjects) are not very good. The best teachers i´ve ever had never went to any universitys, They been active musicians and only played. But when they say some thing or try to explain, you understand right away. And get inspired. ..well never mind.

Jon im shure you belong to the other 15% that are competent[:)]
i hope i do to.
Henrik



JBASHORUN -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 22 2005 12:00:10)

Jon,
I'm sure Tom meant you no offence. What he might have meant was that a great guitarist is not always a great teacher, and vice versa. And that many people who claim to be "teachers" aren't quite as knowledgeable as they should be, or lack the skills to pass that knowledge on to others effectively. I'd like to think that 85% is a slight exaggeration, as the figure is very high. But as Henrik said, I'm sure you guys are part of the competent number.


James



Jon Boyes -> [Deleted] (Feb. 22 2005 12:25:43)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 22 2005 15:24:56



Miguel de Maria -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 22 2005 14:46:59)

I think I agree with Tom. It is not easy to teach someone. What usually happns is you get someone who is an expert or knowledgeable in that subject, and therefore he gets a job as a teacher. But how much expertise does he have at teaching? I think the good guitar player who gets a teaching gig is in the same position as the research oriented chemist who is forced to teach a few 101 classes. He may know the material, but can he efficiently guide the student to arrive at his level of understanding?

Incompetent may seem a harsh word, but it really means ineffective. I don't know if I can count the number of teachers I've had in my life that I would describe as effective. I remember sitting in my college Stats class, watching as many of the other kids could not understand what the teacher was saying, and marveling at how the teacher just didn't understand what she had to do to make them understand. It's a gift to have the creativity to see outside of your own level, and to have the kindness and patience to take the time and energy to take other people with you.

Guitar teachers seem to be even worse than normal, or guitar is just harder. Probably the best ones just insist on a rigorously progressive regimen, and do what they can to make sure your hands are in the right place.



Ron.M -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 22 2005 21:09:00)

quote:

Incompetent may seem a harsh word


Absolutely harsh there Mike!
There are a lot of hard working folk out there.

When I think of all the really competent folk out there, like our Polititians, Police Force,
Government Officials, Food Standards Agency, Child Support Agency, Doctors, Lawyers, Estate Agents, Surveyors, Pensions Advisors, Used Car Salesmen....

Incompetent certainly is a pretty harsh word!
Just maybe just the "wrong" word.

What's that you were saying again about sticking your little finger out?

I'm actually finding rather difficult these days to keep my middle finger in...LOL!

cheers

Ron (In a Grumpy Mood..LOL!)



Miguel de Maria -> RE: THE ART OF RASGUEADO... NO PAIN NO GAIN? (Feb. 22 2005 21:14:06)

Ron,
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, except I am clear that you are grumpy today. I hope that whatever ails you, goes away. I have been in a bad mood lately, too, few gigs and daily work on the house.

Incompetent may very well be the wrong word. After all, what does it mean exactly? It's very subjective.



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