The "other" Palos (Full Version)

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stealthanugrah -> The "other" Palos (Dec. 7 2010 18:51:47)

Just curious,

Since Americans like are busy learning the "big 5" palos, solea, alegrias, bulerias, siguiriyas, and tangos, what's happening to all the other forms?

I know that Flamenco is supposed to be a "global" art in the sense of learning how to play all the palos.

So my question is, are these palos dying out in Spain?

Here's a whole list of palos from Wikipedia just to name a few. I've heard there used to be about 50 different ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_(flamenco)

I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying, if not I'll elaborate soon!



Elie -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 7 2010 19:04:16)

that link is Interesting
?[:-]? marianas, bambera, vidalitas, cartageneras, levantica ?[:-]? what the hell are these ?
IMO I think the maestros play a major role in this case
I mean ( as u mentioned ) solea, alegrias, bulerias, siguiriyas, and tangos are most played .. maybe because great players like paco, vicente, gerardo etc ..... spotted the light on them mainly
take a look at diego's new ablum orate it has 4 bulerias , 1 soleas , 1 tango , 1 seguiriya , 1 rondena ... so I guess other palos are less played even in spain



Paul Magnussen -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 7 2010 19:48:39)

All of these are now pretty rare, as you say:

Marianas:
Hispavox Antología del cante flamenco, Vol.2
Orfón Antología del cante flamenco, Vol.II
Ramón de Algeciras, Grandes guitarras del flamenco
Gran antología flamenca, Vol. 4
Sabicas, Gypsy Flamenco.

Bamberas:
Paco Peña, Misa Flamenca
Gran antología flamenca, Vol. 4
Medio siglo de cante flamenco, Vols. 2 & 4;
Fosforito, Vol. 1.

Cartegeneras:
Camarón & Paco, Canastera
Fosforito Vol. 1.

Couldn't find the other two.



Elie -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 7 2010 20:14:00)

ohh Paul that was so kind of you , thanx .
but the point is after reading that wiki page I came across palos I've never ever heard of , like tonás, debla, carceleras, trilla, romeras, mirabrás etc .... hehehe cool names thou



veet -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 7 2010 20:33:56)

quote:

like tonás, debla, carceleras, trilla, romeras, mirabrás


tonás, debla, trilla, and sometimes carceleras are sung unaccompanied, so the guitar parts are easy...[:D]

There was 6 or 8 years ago at the Bienal a release called the Guia Telematica that gave samples of 102 forms. A lot are subgrouped, especially the fandangos. Also the cantinas family which includes alegrias, caracoles, mirabras, romeras, rosas, etc.



mezzo -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 7 2010 23:04:51)

quote:

So my question is, are these palos dying out in Spain?

Yes IMO.

I think this happens because out of Spain the Flamenco is mainly focused on dance. I mean the "guiris" shows and gigs (made by non spaniard artists) are built around the dancer.
Coz :
1. the public prefer to pay to see a graceful dancers rather than a boring singer.
2. it's much more difficult to find a good singer able to sing pa'lante outside Andalucia.

The consequence of this dance focus for the Art is that only a few palos are suitable for a choregraphy. Plus the Guiris dancers when going to learn in Spain, (during workshop) they learn mainly these few BIG palos for dance.

In Spain (Andalucia) the Cante is what flamenco is about. So when going to see a gig in a pena or in a local festival, you'll have much more chance of seeing a singer pa'lante make the show.
If the place is for "guiris" (in order to attract them) then you can be sure that all the shows will include dancers...so the cante will be pa'tras...[:'(]


One of my fav cante are por Bamberas y por Rondenas [:)]

@Paul Magnussen
There're much more bamberas than what you pointed out man!
Camaron sang some.












stealthanugrah -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 7 2010 23:53:14)

This is all sooo sad!

Great forms that are just beautiful on the guitar like Rodena (Ramon Montoya), Zambra, Granadinas, and Zapateado are dying... this is soo sadd and well I guess it's modern flamenco and us guiri's to blame, haha



Ramon Amira -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 0:00:27)

quote:

Since Americans like are busy learning the "big 5" palos, solea, alegrias, bulerias, siguiriyas, and tangos, what's happening to all the other forms?


I don't know what you mean. Except for a beginner, I don't know a single serious flamenco guitarist who in addition to those five doesn't at least also play Granadinas, Malaguenas, Tarantas, Tientos, Farruca, Sevillanas, Zapateado, Peteneras . . . . .



Paul Magnussen -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 0:04:35)

OK, confusion time.

This is the rondeñas that's like a (usually slower) form of verdiales. It's totally distinct from the rondeña played by Ramón Montoya (although both are forms of fandango.



stealthanugrah -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 0:07:44)

haha, u do have a point, but how many serious ones are there, well then again, not my right to judge,

but there's still a whole bunch of others right? Did you see the list? but then again a lot of the forms are really similar, so I guess they'd be easy to learn,

well I've been enlightened [:D]



gerundino63 -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 8:01:57)

Wel, in Spain it looks like they only play Bulerias, Tangos and if you are lucky Fandangos.....
Everything for the singers...[:D]



XXX -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 8:25:04)

Yeah ive read several times from spanish or ibero-phil people on the foro that they are surprised the guiris know more palos than the spanish. I think that comes from having less flamenco practically around you. You start to soak every bit of it, be it via historical knowledge, or other theoretical stuff.

I find it funny that people lament about dying out palos, when in fact they have never even heard most of them [:D] Personally i could live without Guajiras, Garrotin, Colombianas and other palos. I feel that many of them were just invented to annoy the guitarrist. Bulerias Tangos Solea what more do ya need?



mezzo -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 8:29:59)

quote:

Bulerias Tangos Solea what more do ya need?

maybe a little rhumba.



Adam -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 8:31:38)

Obviously the ones you've named are the most popular but they're not the only ones played by any means. I'd say there are probably about 15-20 which are somewhat "common" (as in, you won't be shocked to hear one in a concert, and any decent guitarist knows how to play one). And I'm not counting ones like romeras, mirabrás, cabales, etc., which most guitarists would know how to accompany in but I think are too similar to others in their family to be counted as completely separate palos.

In response to one of DarkElieDraven's, I've got examples of vidalitas on the Morente-Sabicas album (Nueva York/Granada) and on Juan Habichuela's Campo del Príncipe (a crazy modern one with Estrella Morente [:D]).



stealthanugrah -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 9:24:52)

Ahh, ok, well I just needed the reassurance, because well I feel that anything dying is really important to protect. Whether it be a language or Flamenco, because well guitar literature isn't written down, but then again if someone has a good ear, the jobs done.



NormanKliman -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 9:26:55)

quote:

Since Americans like are busy learning the "big 5" palos, solea, alegrias, bulerias, siguiriyas, and tangos, what's happening to all the other forms?


Why Americans?

quote:

are these palos dying out in Spain?


No. What are dying out are some of the conditions that allow for natural development of the art form (parties).

quote:

but there's still a whole bunch of others right? Did you see the list?


The most common today are soleá, siguiriya, bulería, cantiña, tango, tiento, malagueña, granaína, taranta and fandango.

quote:

There was 6 or 8 years ago at the Bienal a release called the Guia Telematica that gave samples of 102 forms.


Might be this:
http://flun.cica.es/web/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=16

quote:

All of these are now pretty rare


Nothing rare about cartageneras. Still the most common cante minero. The classic letra for one of the two cartageneras that everyone's heard is "Los pícaros tartaneros." Camarón and lots of others have recorded it.

quote:

I came across palos I've never ever heard of , like tonás, debla, carceleras, trilla, romeras, mirabrás etc ....


The experts are saying that the group of cantes is called tonás or martinetes and the debla is one of them but trilla and carcelera are different, maybe closer to folklore than flamenco (recordings by Tenazas, Bernardo el de los Lobitos and Fernando de La Morena).

quote:

And I'm not counting ones like romeras, mirabrás, cabales, etc., which most guitarists would know how to accompany in but I think are too similar to others in their family to be counted as completely separate palos.


Yeah, the names of the styles are all about cante, and the guitar is dealing with the group of cantes of each style. So romeras would be another alegría or cantiña, cabales would be siguiriya in a major key, etc.

quote:

Wel, in Spain it looks like they only play Bulerias, Tangos and if you are lucky Fandangos.....

Flamenco isn't popular in most of northern Spain but it's still going strong in the rest of the country.



Ricardo -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 16:46:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stealthanugrah

This is all sooo sad!

Great forms that are just beautiful on the guitar like Rodena (Ramon Montoya), Zambra, Granadinas, and Zapateado are dying... this is soo sadd and well I guess it's modern flamenco and us guiri's to blame, haha


Are you talking guitar, or cante? At first I thought you implied americans meaning dancers and guitarists. The list is of cante's, and a huge umbrella of one guitar style could cover a bunch of similar cantes. For example all the cante de levante or cante de la mina might be able to be accompanied in just one key, por 'taranta" in terms of guitar. All the cantiñas accomp. in C major, etc....

If you do mean guitar forms then you are just ill informed. expand your record collection. Modern guitarists have performed all in that short list. Tomatito even recorded Don Ramon's falsetas on "Guitarra Gitana". Jesus del Rosaria has done Zambra, Vicente has fantastic Zapateado on Vivencias, and there are tons of great modern Granainas to check out, especially Nunez and Vicente.

It is becoming harder to find "complete" cantaors, or true masters like existed in the past. The younger generations are not mastering the song forms as much as guitar or dance IMO. Still, if you do look at the best singers from history, many of then specialized in only a few palos, or stuck with just the palos from their home town or region. Might have been why they were so much better back then, because they did not try to sing EVERY palo instead focused on a few they could truly master.

Ricardo



stealthanugrah -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 17:29:53)

Alright, well never mind then. I guess I was ill informed, well I guess I assumed from what I've seen on youtube. I've seen tons of videos on youtube, but it was rare to find any of the other palos.

Alright, I guess I do have to expand my record collection a bit then.

But I do agree with your last statement. It applies to Diego del Gastor really because he focused a lot on Bulerias, Solea, and Alegrias, with a bit of Siguiriyas. But it makes sense.

I read somewhere what supposedly was PDL's opinion of Diego, but I'm going to have to search for the link again somewhere. It was an interesting post.



stealthanugrah -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 17:36:58)

Here it is, but I find it hard to have one article like this burst my bubble.

http://www.deflamenco.com/articulos/verArticuloi.jsp?codigo=FLA|460

And the 2nd page

http://www.deflamenco.com/articulos/verArticuloi.jsp?codigo=FLA|461

I'm going to have to reread it again. I'm sure this has been definitely talked about on the forum.



Ron.M -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 17:59:32)

quote:

Might have been why they were so much better back then, because they did not try to sing EVERY palo instead focused on a few they could truly master.


Excellent statement, Ricardo!

Andalucia decades ago consisted of many small communities with only very limited regular travel to other far outlying areas, so therefore a local culture and style would develop.

A direct parallel with small and very regionally oriented countries like Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland IMO.

Nowadays, with Global access to practically everything, naturally that whole period has gone into history.

A bit like restaurants now that do cuisine from all over the world...

Not all for the better IMO.[;)]

cheers,

Ron



Anders Eliasson -> RE: The "other" Palos (Dec. 8 2010 20:13:19)

I dont know
Mairena was pretty good on 80% of the palos he mastered. So was Camaron and nowadays I think Carmen Linares does most things very well.

Btw. good to have you back Ricardo. [:)] Even though I´m not a big fan of your profile photo.[8D]



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