how do you count fandangos? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - how do you count fandangos?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=153308



Message

Stu -> how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 25 2010 22:23:55)

I haven't done alot of work on fandangos and have to play some soon for dancers.

most recordings ive heard seems to start on two beats of E then Am on the third beat...

In the grandados book there seems to be two extra beats of E at the start which he says is count 1 and 2!
1 2 3 4 5
E E E E Am

in JM book count 1 and 2 are two E chords and count 3 is the Am
1 2 3
E E Am

so is this more of a problem of transcribing fandangos because JM does mention something about this in his book.

any hints/tips would be great...especially from the dancing ladies



Ailsa -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 25 2010 22:46:20)

Man that's a good question, I'll be really interested to hear the answers here.

When I first learnt it with Tony he teaches it in 6, then when I started learning with Rafa he taught it in 3. So far so good.

A few weeks ago I turned up to play for dance class and found they were doing fandangos (no warning - I like life on the edge!), and the teacher, who is Spanish, from Almería, counts it in 12. But not just in 12 starting in the same place - she starts on the last beat of a group of 4 x 3s. OK that's really confusing, let me try again.

Tony taught me to count:
1 2 3, 4 5 6, 1 2 3, 4 5 6,

For those same chords Angela counts

12 1 2, 3 4 5, 6 7 8, 9 10 11,

OMG I had to work my brain so hard to figure out where they were in the compas! (Is that my 3 or their 3? What does 9 relate to in the way I usually count? [&:][&:][&:])

[:D][:D]

Any way I now play:

1 golpe
2 E7
3 Am
4 golpe
5 Am
6 Am
1 G
2 F
3 E
4 golpe
5 E
6 E

And variations in the rhythm on that chord pattern.



turnermoran -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 0:45:54)

@Stu - personally, I don't feel super confident w/ F.d.H now, but I had the same question you had for a long time, and I feel like I've made some progress on account of some videos.

First, I stumbled on this Juan Martin video:


..so, yeah, it's Juan Martin. Take it at face value.
But I felt he did an OK job of explaining it in terms of the 12 count. And it was old school.

Then I stumbled on a series of videos by Ruben Diaz: (this is the first of 6)


Anyway, another "take it at face value", as I guess Diaz's infamy is well documented here on Foro.

Anyway, the plus side of Diaz' video is that he presents the material in a non-specific way regarding the counting (at first) - but by the end of the videos, I was doing what Juan Martin was trying to explain much more comfortably. 'The ends justify the means' kinda thing. And the R.H. fingering was well explained, and consistent with a lot of people seem to be doing.

And I realized he was counting in 12 along, but by getting the hands to do what the need to do, I didn't have to worry about the counting - it took care of itself.

And for the record, personally, I think Diaz's videos are helpful, and he's a great player. People may question those guitars he plays, but to my hear, they sound pretty damn good.

I believe both guys are counting starting on 1, w/ a movement of chords and accents that is the same as what Ailsa explained.

Anyway, that helped me. I'd love to hear what others have to say on this subject.

Adam del Monte has a video on it - part of a series of 10 or 12 videos on different palos'. His playing knocked me out, but his explanation wasn't clear to me.



turnermoran -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 0:49:57)

and for the record, I should say that those videos and my understanding of the material is only what I can glean from it. It is in no way meant to be read as instructional, as I'm completely unqualified to teach this stuff right now.

Someone may well come along and say that I got it totally wrong. By all means: I welcome it!

I'm very interested in hearing what others say about the counting and compás of F.d.H

And as they say "consider the source" - both for me, as for Juan Martin and Ruben Diaz. I know Jason McGuire has some good stuff at his Flamenco-Lessons website - I haven't gotten to it yet though...



val -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 1:02:34)

quote:

any hints/tips would be great...especially from the dancing ladies


Hi Stu
I dance but don't really play much guitar these days. Am I bragging if I say I don't count any more?!
When I DID count, and even now, if I think deeply about it, I can't help but feel a 12 start. (But then again, I struggle counting bulerias in 6's).
You should learn to dance. It helps. Yes, and listen, listen, listen to loads of fandango.
I've got a REALLY basic set of chords with numbering (although I can no longer make much sense of it myself, so I'm not sure how much use it will be ). If you want it, PM me your email address.



CarloJuan -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 1:37:32)

Let's try to keep this thread alive, so as to generate much substantial replies and information from people.

Too bad, Jason ain't here or isn't supposed to be here (yet) to answer important questions such as these.

Keep it posted! [:)]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 26 2010 5:16:16)

[Deleted by Admins]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 8:01:19)

So here we go again with mental counting something which is very easy and straight forward.
I live in Huelva, I play Fandangos de Huelva with singers from Huelva and I learned to play FdH in Huelva
I made a post on how I learned to fandangos 2 years ago. Its here:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=104164&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=fandangos%2Cde%2Chuelva&tmode=&smode=&s=#104164

My way is not the right way. I dont believe in right ways. But it was pretty simple to learn. Here (In Huelva) they count 1 2 3 with accent on one. A whole cycle has four times 1 2 3. Sometimes someone explains the right hand in 6, because there´s a rythmical variation in the first and second 1 2 3 cycle.

As with most music and especially in etnical music like flamenco, you´ll learn things a lot faster by simple listening. Letting the music come into your head and body and conserve it there. Doing a lot of mental excercises complicates life a lot and normally slow down the learning process with 10x or more factor.



stratos13 -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 8:33:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

So here we go again with mental counting something which is very easy and straight forward.
As with most music and especially in etnical music like flamenco, you´ll learn things a lot faster by simple listening. Letting the music come into your head and body and conserve it there. Doing a lot of mental excercises complicates life a lot and normally slow down the learning process with 10x or more factor.



I think this depends on the person. There are people who understand things by listening to others, and others that get more out of written passages.
I am definately the reading guy. Even if someone shows me something, i take a paper and write down what he played. After i do that, i never think of counting and i can even improvise with the rythm or the falseta. But only after i have written it down once.
So i think the problem is how one understands it better. Then we will all play without thinking of numbers..

My 2cents on the subject.

I also think that learning the Sevillanas helps alot with FdHuelva.



John O. -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 13:02:07)

My experience is it's beneficial to be able to count starting at 12 where the 12 is the accent as well as counting in 6 where the 1 is the accent.

I know a lot of dancers who start at 1, it's good to get used to thinking this way. Another reason is that the compás, especially in letra and falseta, repeats in 6's (the 12-3-6-9 Romerito brought up - there's no 8 accent in the basic rhythm so you can repeat counting in 6's). Singers can also sing 6 longer in Fandangos. So it's good to keep the 6 count in mind.

On the other hand Fandangos can switch to Bulerias at the end which accent the 12 and not the 1 (so the 1 becomes the 12). Also a dancer will often accentuate the 6-8-10 of the 12-count compás in Fandangos choreographies.

In any case the more sensible ways you're able to count out a palo, the better your understanding of the different aspects of it. There's no wrong way as long as it helps you play correctly and communicate with the other musicians.

The 12 count is the best to start with in my opinion.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 26 2010 16:19:23)

[Deleted by Admins]



Paul Magnussen -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 18:23:57)

Fandangos have a 12 beat count, which may be represented in its simplest terms as follows:

01 golpe
02 E7
03 Am
04 golpe
05 & 06 Am
07 golpe (or G)
08 F
09 E7
10 golpe
11 & 12 E7

It's true that you occasionally get half-compases (especially at the start of the copla), but the basic count is still 12.

Source of this information: Paco Peña.

I remember Paco also telling me something that I hadn't realised at that time: that the compás of fandangos is identical to that of sevillanas.



mark indigo -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 18:28:25)

quote:

any hints/tips would be great


Counting is a tool to help understand/learn/play music, but it is not music. same goes for writing things down. If you need it, use it. If you don't need it, don't use it.

Some people get so hung up on counting they don't listen to what they are trying to count, and they argue about the "right" way to count

(eg. siguiriyas starting on 12? most people know 1 & 2 & 3 & a 4 & a 5 &
and maybe 8 9 10 11 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, but what about 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11?? I came across someone who insisted that was the ONE TRUE CORRECT and ONLY RIGHT way to count siguiriyas).

they also over-complicate things which actually gets in the way of their explanations helping people to learn

(eg. JM white book FDH in 12's, falsetas start on 1 with a 14 beat compas and then 12's and then a 10 beat compas at the end of the falseta and back to 12's again.... i rest my case).

i often have to ask people to play/dance that again this time without counting out loud so i can actually hear it.

if you play for dancers you probably need to be familiar with all ways of counting so nothing puts you off.

My advice? learn ALL the methods of counting so none of them throw you, use whichever makes most sense or seems most useful, but ultimately try to get beyond counting and internalise the rhythm/s.

quote:

I don't know how many times I have been with flamencos who say that infamous phrase "como la buleria.


so count in sixes then...[8D]



Paul Magnussen -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 18:32:26)

quote:

(eg. JM white book FDH in 12's, falsetas start on 1 with a 14 beat compas and then 12's and then a 10 beat compas at the end of the falseta and back to 12's again.... i rest my case).


Good grief! I hadn't realised he was that incompetent.



turnermoran -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 18:37:57)

Here's an video of Adam del Monte explaining FdH as a 12 count (starting on 12)..but then he counts in 3's and "jams", before reverting to the 12 count to place a remate.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 18:39:08)

[;)]



Escribano -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 18:40:44)

quote:

Dancers is another thing
[;)]



Doitsujin -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 18:40:56)

Just count. 1 2 3 1 2 3..its simple like that.



mark indigo -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 19:31:57)

quote]
1 2 3 4 5
E E E E Am

1 2 3
E E Am

[/quote]

btw, when i first learnt FDH, i was told count in 2's, with the Am as beat 1!![8|]

then in dance class count in 12's starting on 12 (Am falls on beat 2)
but the guitarist (when asked) counted in sixes starting on 1 (Am falls on beat 3)

then JM white book count in 12's start on 1 (Am falls on beat 3) except for that 10, 14 falseta thing.

then Jingle said keep it simple, count in 3's (Am falls on beat 3)

i have learnt them all (except the weird JM one)!

i find "dumba-dumba-dum, dumba-dum(wait)" works best![;)]



Stu -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 20:43:26)

[&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][&:][:(][:(][:(][:(][:(]



....[:D][:D]



Stu -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 21:13:32)

thanks everyone it think my queries have been answered....been playing some basic compas for last couple of day and im starting to get the vibe!

ps @Escribano. "nobody sees the wizard, not nobody, not no how!!"[:D][:D]



Escribano -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 21:50:06)

quote:

ps @Escribano. "nobody sees the wizard, not nobody, not no how!!"


"Just ignore that man behind the curtain"



Stu -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Nov. 26 2010 22:13:28)

hahah! but now its gone!?!?! i liked it!



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 27 2010 1:07:35)

[Deleted by Admins]



Paul Magnussen -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Dec. 9 2010 17:24:17)

I've just noticed that there's an excellent explanation on pp. 57–59 of The Flamenco Guitar by Juan D. Grecos. Although long out of print, this is an excellent book for a beginner, especially in conjunction with a video method.

Looks as if Amazon US has one for cheap:

http://www.amazon.com/Flamenco-Guitar-Juan-D-Grecos/dp/B003NHWJ9M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291918925&sr=1-1



por medio -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Dec. 9 2010 18:36:02)

DON'T count. See if you can listen (play along and hum to) to lots of cante and understand the compas with your "body" and not your "head". It really is the best way IMO.

Of course, when you're beginning it's hard not to count, but really try to spend some time bashing out the compas without going "one two three..." or "twelve one two...".



Ricardo -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Dec. 9 2010 20:08:07)

count in simple ONE two three, ONE two three, etc... is safest as you will encounter at some point not only "Half compas" but also quarter compases when accompanying. An example is Manolo Sanlucar's Banderillas during the estribillo. Not 12, not 6....[;)]




ddk -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Dec. 9 2010 20:08:42)

My 2 cents:

In the beginning, its fine to count in order to understand the basis for each palo.

But once you understand the base, it doesn't matter if you count in 3's or 6's or twelve's; start on 12 or start on 1. It doesn't matter!

Feel the pulse and listen to the music!



Chiste de Gales -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Dec. 10 2010 18:19:32)

My teacher told me is in 12, however the dance group that we both play with almost entirely uses choreography that requires 6.

see us here: http://www.youtube.com/user/FlamencoTheatre#p/a/u/2/-g6ur2wSjrI



Ricardo -> RE: how do you count fandangos? (Sep. 17 2011 16:00:51)

quote:

In the grandados book there seems to be two extra beats of E at the start which he says is count 1 and 2!
1 2 3 4 5
E E E E Am

in JM book count 1 and 2 are two E chords and count 3 is the Am
1 2 3
E E Am


So, I was wondering why the different ways to count this rhythm, especially this granados version because I had seen it written this way before. I think it comes from the relation to Solea type phrasing, especially when playing por medio.

The reason for the 2 extra beats of E is because if you examin a lot of fandango naturales, the opening rasgueado type sequence often starts on that beat...much like your "1,2,3" for the rasgueado of solea. So the 3rd beat gets emphasis, then you have 4,5 strum up and down or with a "gallop", then 6 would get the golpe, then the same phrase starting rasgueado on 7, etc....In addition, most falseta phrases start on that same "one" beat, yet feel like pick ups to the 3rd beat.

Now this differs with Romerito's harmonic rhythm where, the above strum ends up starting on count 10 (or 4 makes more sense as we typically start with an A chord and do it twice before the chord change to Bb) and implies chord changes happen on the count 5 and/or 11. (Romerito's version overlays solea compas so that the harmonies change on 2 or 8). Also, the remate of fandangos has a feeling like solea's Arpegio on 10,11,12. If we try to lay THAT phrase over fandangos we get yet another shift of the counts such that rasgueados start on 12, and harmonic changes occur on 4 or 10.

As we can see, there are rhythmic similarities to Solea phrasing, but the overall idea is very different. I don't see a point to attempt to overlay the two compases for the sake of the number 12.

Better to deal with Fandangos as a 6 beat compas in general with the notion that half compas (just 3 beats) can occur often.

Having said that, our opening rasgueado (and falsetas) should be thought of as a pick up to the down beat (5,6-ONE), golpes (heavy beats) occur on 1,4, and harmonic changes occur on 3.



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET