Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Full Version)

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JasonMcGuire -> Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 18 2010 20:10:04)

Aside from making any bold claims that the following information is "puro flamenco" and will get you a pat on the head from Manolo Sanlucar, it is something that I find to sound interesting and useful in my own study of harmony and melodic ideas applied to flamenco(more or less). Use at your own risk....

For Simplicity we will use A Phrygian a.k.a "Por Medio"


Some common Bb chords used in this Key(bulerias,solea por bulerias, tangos, etc...)

--0------0----1------0-------1---0-----6------0------3----4------------------------------------------
--3------3----3------3-------1---1-----6------6------3----5------------------------------------------
--3------3----1------5-------3---1-----10----0------3----3------------------------------------------
--0------3----3------3-------0---0-----6------6------3----0------------------------------------------
--1------1----1------1-------1---1-----8------5------7----X------------------------------------------
--1------X----1------X-------X---1-----6------6------6----6------------------------------------------

Try this scale - F melodic Minor.... use this over the Bb Dominant Chords above

-----------------------------------------------------3-4-6-4-3--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------3-5-6------------------6-5-3-----------------------------------------
----------------------------------1-3-5-----------------------------------5-3-1---------------------------------
------------------------2-3-5------------------------------------------------------5-3-2-------------------------
---------------1-3-5-------------------------------------------------------------------------5-3-1---------------
---0-1-3-4-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------4-3-1-0----


If you like how that sounds use it. If you hate it. Don't use it. Please note that it is necessary for the
Bb chords to contain a flat or "dominant" 7th or no 7th at all. Major 7th chords will not work for this exercise
even though they can be used in the "por medio" key in general. A Bb Major 7 chord would warrant the use
of F Major Scale instead of F Melodic Minor. See below.....

Bb Major 7th TYPE Chords

-0--1--5--6--5--6--1--3--5-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-3--3--3--6--6--6--1--3--6-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-2--2--3--7--5--9--2--5--7-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-3--3--0--7--5--7--0--7--8-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-1--1--X--8--5--8--1--X--X-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-X--X--6--6--6--6--X--6--X-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

F Major Scale..... use this over the Bb Major 7th Chords

------------------------------------------------3-5-6-5-3-----------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------3-5-6-------------------6-5-3-----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------2-3-5-------------------------------------5-3-2-----------------------------------------
--------------------2-3-5---------------------------------------------------------5-3-2-------------------------------
----------0-1-3-5-------------------------------------------------------------------------5-3-1-0--------------------
--0-1-3-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3-1-0------------


Now for the resolving A chords......

---0----X---0---5---3---5---0---9---------------------------------------------------------------------
---2----2---2---5---5---5---3---10--------------------------------------------------------------------
---3----2---3---3---3---6---3---9---------------------------------------------------------------------
---2----2---2---5---7---8---2---8---------------------------------------------------------------------
---0----0---0---0---0---7---0---0---------------------------------------------------------------------
---X----6---3---X---X---5---X---X---------------------------------------------------------------------

try this scale - Bb Melodic Minor over the resolving A7(b9) chords

--------------------------------------------------3-5-6-5-3----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------2-4-6---------------------6-4-2----------------------------------------
------------------------------2-3-5-----------------------------------------5-3-2------------------------------
----------------------1-3-5---------------------------------------------------------5-3-1----------------------
------------1-3-4-----------------------------------------------------------------------------4-3-1------------
--1-3-5-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------5-3-1---

Even though the chords contain a "perfect" 5th, we are with the scale FORCING an Altered Scale Color (b5)
for the purposes of making **** that sounds cool even though its WRONG.

Another scale to try on for size is A Diminished "Octatonic",

----------------------------------------------------------2-3-5-3-2--------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------2-4-5-------------------5-4-2-----------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------2-3-5---------------------------------------5-3-2-------------------------------------
-------------------------1-2-4-5-----------------------------------------------------------5-4-2-1--------------------------
------------0-1-3-4-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------4-3-1-0-------------
--0-2-3--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------3-2-0--

The diminished scale is more "right", but still wrong and will get you removed from any classroom very quickly, but the good news is
your phone will ring more than ever.

The famous bulerias remate or "closing lick" of Moraito uses this scale..... (except for the open D note)

--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------0---------------------------------
--1^0----------------0^1----^4-0---------------------------
---------3-2^3-2^3--------------------------------------------


Here is a link to a PDF version in case formatting is screwed up for you....
http://flamenco-lessons.com/PorMedioFun.pdf

ENJOY!



mezzo -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 10:10:38)

thanks.



Kevin James Shanahan -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 10:33:51)

Thanks again.



marduk -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 10:47:38)

thanks Jason



Ramirez -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 10:53:40)

Thanks for going to the effort, Jason - much appreciated.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 19 2010 11:29:37)

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orsonw -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 11:45:11)

quote:

Since Moraito is often the only accompanist he does not have to worry about clashing with anyone


Recently I have been playing with a very accomplished professional guitarist and he actually liked the clashes. When playing with him I've been improvising and find as long as it's in compas, disharmony can sound good, of course some clashes are better than others! And we weren't playing for a singer, who probably wouldn't like clashing notes. The dancer said it was beautiful and there were a few real clangers in there.

Often 'wrong' notes sound right to me. Except I'm ignorant of theory so there are no wrong notes just musical expression. (I'm not looking for a fight, I don't think knowledge of theory and musical expression are mutually exclusive, I'm just talking about my personal experience).

I'm really grateful for all the recent theory that people are posting it's beyond me but interesting and thought provoking.

Jason's generosity is humbling- have the foro put you on some sort of community service as punishment for your recent cartoon posts?!



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 13:06:21)

use the info or don't use it. I'm not really trying to interpret Moraito. I am presenting MY OWN THOUGHTS as to how I personally approach some issues in regards to harmony and chord theory. The part about being "wrong" was a joke. Treating the A7(b9) as an Altered Dominant is nothing new. If you are one guitarist playing alone in the cuadro there will be no clash. One driver, one steering wheel, one gas pedal..... harmonically speaking.[:D]



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 13:12:39)

quote:

-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
--------------------0---------------------
------------0-1-4---------------------------
-----0-1-4----------------------------------
---3----------------------------------------

G double harmonic minor
G-A-Bb-C#-D-E-F#-G

Since Moraito is often the only accompanist he does not have to worry about clashing with anyone. This scale covers that open d note too.


I use that one too Kevin.... and the chromatic scale works great too.[8D]

thanks for contributing.

If I remove that bit about Moraito will you quit buggin out?



yohan -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 13:25:58)

thanks a lot, this is very usefull![:)]



rogeliocan -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 13:49:28)

Thanks Jason,
Haven't had time to read this and I saw there is at least another one of these.

Would it make sense to move these to the Resources or even in the Academy section, I don't think much is happening with that. This way they will be easier to find because so much stuff gets posted in general, it's just going to disappear off the page.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 13:57:48)

mods can move it wherever they need or want to. I didn't realize it had been covered before. I am not surprised. I as a student went over this material with at least 10 different music teachers. Each had their own twist on it that I found valuable in knowing. The comparison of various teacher's approach also aided in me finding room to "be myself" within the information.



rogeliocan -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 14:54:35)

I don't know if it's been covered either. I need this stuff and I want to be able to find it when I'll look for it and there is a lot less that gets posted in Resource. Plus I think it's a good fit because this stuff is a great resource!



orsonw -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 15:05:55)

quote:

Would it make sense to move these to the Resources or even in the Academy section



I second that, also the Mineras thread should go to the new palos section. Who do we ask to do that, Ron?



elroby -> [Deleted] (Nov. 19 2010 15:57:37)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 5 2012 4:28:03



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 19 2010 16:55:43)

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JasonMcGuire -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 16:58:12)

that scale works great.... double harmonic minor.... bichin



malakka -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 17:04:19)

Awesome stuff, Jason!!!

Thank you!



XXX -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 17:27:10)

Not meaning to slow down the certainly useful theory posts in this matter, but we have now more than 4? theory threads going on. I already have lost track. Maybe we should do a separate section for it, also because these question always repeat themselves often on the foro?



Rain -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 19 2010 21:13:42)

Excellent and very informative.

Thank you.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 20 2010 1:55:18)

Thanks Rain



at_leo_87 -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 20 2010 5:46:17)

thanks jason! i bookmarked a lot of your recent threads for later study. a lot of good stuff going on here!



mark indigo -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 22 2010 18:21:08)

thanks for posting up these chords, scales and ideas etc., really interesting and useful, i have a few questions:

i seem to have a mental block on melodic minor, i learnt the major scale mode patterns years ago, and worked out and learnt the mode patterns for the harmonic minor too. Because the 5th mode of the harmonic minor is the phrygian major 3rd scale it seemed relevant, and i practise and use both sets of patterns.

but melodic minor, i could never get my head around or seem to learn.

In terms of using it and memorising the fingering, is it better to think of the melodic minor as a harmonic minor with another note sharped, or is it better to think of it as a major scale with a note flatted?

I'm getting that the F mm scale starting on Bb (ie. 4th mode) has the same 1, 3, 5, 7 as the Bb7 chord, is that right?


but the Bb mm scale starting on A (ie the 7th mode) is different, no? it has the 1, 4 and 7 of the scale corresponding to the 1, 3, 7 of A7 chord, and the 5th note is a flat 5, correcto?

i'm also transposing all of this into other keys, so i'm trying to learn 2 sets of mm patterns for each phrygian toño (as in your eg., F and Bb for A phrygian)

also one more question, for Jason or Romerito (or anyone else), what the heck is a double harmonic minor?!



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 22 2010 18:45:47)

quote:

I'm getting that the F mm scale starting on Bb (ie. 4th mode) has the same 1, 3, 5, 7 as the Bb7 chord, is that right?


Yes, but more importantly the raised 11th. E natural. Lydian Dominant is how it is described by many.

quote:

In terms of using it and memorising the fingering, is it better to think of the melodic minor as a harmonic minor with another note sharped, or is it better to think of it as a major scale with a note flatted?


You can think of it either way. Fingering Melodic Minor Scales are difficult because they usually one to shift position. This is also the strength of this scale as a technical exercise. The Melodic Minors gave me a lot of grief too. Hang in there and don't give up. The pay off is big even if you choose to never use these scales.


quote:

but the Bb mm scale starting on A (ie the 7th mode) is different, no? it has the 1, 4 and 7 of the scale corresponding to the 1, 3, 7 of A7 chord, and the 5th note is a flat 5, correcto?


Yes. It forces the Altered Chord sound. Use it carefully and you will have another color to paint with. The idea I am operating under is that The "home " chord in the por medio Phrygian Dominant mode or whatever you decide to call it for yourself.[;)] Is basically an A7(b9) chord, usually without the 7th and sometimes even without the 3rd. Many jazz players when reading a chart with take liberty to make that chord even more dissonant by using an additional b5,b13,#9,#5 etc..... I'm not saying its right or wrong, just that many players do that. It gives the person soloing more choices and can lead them into some interesting places. Also conversely a soloist in jazz may be using material that leads the chords to play these more significant alterations. I am suggesting here to use THAT sound occasionally to freshen things up or just as an alternative. I think these things are good to study even if you decide you don't like the sound because learning is not a bad thing. Its better to choose NOT to use something you know than to not use something for lack of knowledge.

To my ear both the b5 and the natural 5 sound fine together here. Its all about harmonic tension and that certainly does create some extra tension.[8D]

Yes learn these in all keys. You will be glad you did.

quote:

also one more question, for Jason or Romerito (or anyone else), what the heck is a double harmonic minor?!


Double Harmonic minor.....

its a crazy, but cool scale.

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
A Bb C# D E F G#


Actually when Kevin suggested that the Moraito lick was double harmonic minor he was incorrect as Moraito's lick contains an F# and the double harmonic minor scale contains F natural.

http://www.tonalcentre.org/Doubleha.html



mark indigo -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 22 2010 21:50:45)

quote:

Yes, but more importantly the raised 11th.


so the same #11 as the tipico Bb chord - ok,

quote:

Lydian Dominant is how it is described by many.


ah-ha, that name never made any sense to me before, does now![:)]

thanks!

quote:

G double harmonic minor
G-A-Bb-C#-D-E-F#-G


quote:

Double Harmonic minor.....

its a crazy, but cool scale.

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
A Bb C# D E F G#


these are different scales.... according to the info on that tonal centre.org site, i think the one at the top is G double harmonic minor, and the one underneath is A double harmonic major



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 22 2010 23:03:30)

oops sorry.



cathulu -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 23 2010 1:56:57)

This is all very cool stuff and it just blows my mind dude!



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 23 2010 4:07:49)

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JasonMcGuire -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 23 2010 6:54:20)

quote:

ut, still a great lesson on octatonic. When is melodic minor coming?


After Turkey[:)]



Florian -> RE: Lesson- Concepts for "Por Medio" Harmony with TAB examples (Nov. 23 2010 7:16:19)

excellent topic!!! ...thanks Jason some great ideas there....month is almost up :-)!i look forward to having the waiting period thingy dissapear from your posts


Also Romerito on the other Andalucian cadence thread...but u asked people not to post there so...great topics



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