coreydefresno -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 19 2010 2:43:06)
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4) Flamenco has not existed for that long. All important flamencologists/musicologists agree. First, again to Planeta. His seguiriya is the first that we know of. Guess what. We do not know the melody. We know he strummed an intro and then sang but as far as we know he did not accompany himself. If he is the earliest flamenco, and we do not have empirical evidence for a melody or actual seguiriya accompaniment, then how is he flamenco? Many of the leading scholars (Hurtado Cortes; Caballero; Gamboa) are all begining to speak of preflamenco/protoflamenco/flamenco. Preflamenco would be 16th to 18th century. Protoflamenco would be people like Planeta who have enough characteristics to say a music is emerging. And flamenco would be Los Cagancho, Joaquin de la Paula, El Fillo, Silverios, Don Antonio, who if you look at their dates, are mid to late 19th century. Dear Romerito, This statement is from the Andalucian government that due to political correctness, and proper Andalucian manner, does not refer to any Iberian-Arabs as gypsies, but in fact, amongst themselves, the gitanos who for example own the shops around the Mezquita, do not like people calling them 'gypsies" because of the negative connotations from the past and because of the association of them with the typical Romany street gypsies that beg and read fortunes at the Puerta del Perdon. Here is the official, Andalucian government version of the history of flamenco where they clearly state that flamenco has been documented for 200 years or so, but they say that it began when the Indians came in 1425 and fused their music and life with the Arabs and Jews in the rugged mountains of Andalucia. They clearly say that this was the beginning of Flamenco. Also there are many writers as early as 1770 that documented the widespread popularity of flamenco within the entire population of Andalucia, and the countless flamenco shows that were documented. Since it was widely popular at the first documentation of the Art, does it not stand to reason that it took many decades, and centuries for it to evolve to be a widely popular folkloric art? Does it stand to reason that if it were not written that it did not exist, knowing all else that we know about Andalucian culture and history? They preserved the Hellenic traditions, and the Hellenic traditions brought in 800 developed throughout Andalucia and merged with Romani culture: Did they not influence the Romani's, and shape flamenco? Were the Arabs not the most advanced and civilized culture of their time? Did they not plant the seed, in 800 A.D.? I have more to say, but I want you read and consider this first before you emphatically state that flamenco started with El Planeta and is only 200 years old. "Flamenco history has only been documented for the past two hundred years or so, and anything before this time is open to debate and speculation. Much of what we know from before this time comes from stories and legends that have been passed down through family dynasties, in a similar way to the flamenco song itself. One thing we can be sure of is that flamenco in its original form was only voice, a primitive cry or chant accompanied only by the rhythm which would be beaten out on the floor by a wooden staff or cane. These styles are known as Palo Secos, or dry styles, and they are the oldest forms of song known today. The Toñas are the family of songs which represent these style and they include the toña, one of the oldest known styles, the martinetes, which are the songs of the blacksmiths, the rhythm being supplied by the hammer beating on the anvil, the carceleras or prison songs, and the debla, which at one time was thought to have had connections with a gypsy religious rite." "Many believe flamenco to be the invention of the gypsies, and although they have been the main protagonists of the art, they are not its sole creators. Flamenco song can be broken down into two categories- Cante gitano, gypsy songs, and Cante andaluz, andalucian songs. When the gypsies arrived in Andalucia from India around 1425, they brought with them many song and dance styles that have strong Indian connections. At this time Andalucía was still under Arab rule, and along with the Jews and the moors, the gypsies were soon to be persecuted by the Catholic monarchs and the inquisition. The moors were forced to convert to Christianity, and failure to do so resulted in expulsion from Spain, the Jews suffered a similar fate, and the gypsies were subjected to some of the worst atrocities in an attempt to exterminate them as a race. Many laws were passed by various monarchs, which forbid them anything to do with their identity. They were to stop wearing their style of dress, cease speaking in the Romany language, and to stop their wanderings and seek steady employment, which prohibited them obtaining money by the usual gypsy traits like horse dealing, trading at fairs, and sorcery. These laws and restrictions resulted in bands of gypsies, moors, and Jews taking refuge in treacherous mountainous areas, which were too desolate for the authorities to pursue them. These different cultures lived in relative harmony for many years, and the fusion of their music and dances are what we know today as flamenco. In the eighteenth century attitude towards the gypsies changed considerably,which resulted in numerous bands of gypsies descending on the small villages and towns, bringing with them their exciting, seductive music- flamenco. At first this music was not considered worthy of attention, and flamenco was only performed in the homes and private get together of the gypsies. Their mysterious music and stimulating dances were soon to catch the attention of the romantic writers of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries." Saludos, Corey
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