Music theory is way too complicated (Full Version)

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rogeliocan -> Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:15:51)

I'm looking at how to read chord names and I know a bit of the intervals, degrees, modes etc. and I think that all of that stuff could simplified, redone with 21st century logic.
In other words it's time for a 2.0 version, kind of like moving from Imperial to Metric, it hurts but after everything is so much simpler.

.. what's a gallon? (An imperial one that is... "Thus the gallon, the basic English unit of volume, was originally the volume of eight pounds of wheat. "

The way I read music theory it's close to that.

Anyways, I know that people well versed in theory will probably disagree but I'm sure all of this stuff could be made much simpler. I feel better now, just a bit, well, not really.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:19:54)

good luck



rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:29:24)

Here is one of the reasons I say this. I'm reading on chord names.

So A is the same as A major or Amaj

Am7b5 is A minor with a minor 7th (or just a 7th) and a flat 5
As far as I can decipher that is the same as Adim with a 7th added, so why not just call it Adim7

Then you have Adim7 which means Adim with a diminished 7th which in my mind would be more obvious if it was named Adim(dim7)

So if the above is right.... it's just that there is a lot of predetermined rules in the chord name that you must know.
For example, with Adim7, you should know that the A is also diminished.
For Am7b5, you should know that the A is also diminished... it tells you the 5 is, the 7 is but nothing about the 3rd....



XXX -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:29:27)

dude, becoming versed in music theory is nothing compared to developing good rasgeado or picado [:D] everything what you will be confronted with in flamenco is harder than this "4th grade math" as someone on the forum put it once.

Good thing in flamenco is you only need a minimal amount of theory compared to Jazz or other styles. Most of the stuff in flamenco works more with guitarristic things like chord positions, open strings etc, rather than having a super-theoretical chord progression over 16 scales or something.



rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:33:59)

quote:

becoming versed in music theory is nothing compared to developing good rasgeado or picado everything what you will be confronted with in flamenco is harder than this "4th grade math"


Don't worry, I am well aware of that [:(]



Chiste de Gales -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:36:04)

Just learn it in simple ways. Start very basically and move up.
Id suggest not to dive right into flamenco harmonic phrygian modes first.

Start with plain old major.
Like- in the key of ___ make sure you can play the following chords:

I ii iii IV IV7 vi viiº I

When you're done with that, learn each one of those with a 7th added.

Learn very basic sight reading in staff notation. It really is the simplest way to see the theory.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:36:19)

A minor 7th flat 5, AKA A "half-diminished"

A,C,Eb,G



Elie -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:37:49)

why waste time learning chords ?
I never tried to learn chord names because it is useless in my opinion
I have never seen a conductor shouting to his orchestra Am7b5 before [8D]
trust me at the end they will give u headaches



rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:42:19)

Guys... remember Jason's Minera instructions? Without knowing the chords I doubt you could do anything with them.

EDIT: which is, by the way, the reason, and the first time I see a need to understand chords. So thanks Jason.



mezzo -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:45:36)

quote:

Guys... remember Jason's Minera instructions? Without knowing the chords I doubt you could do anything with them.

+1



rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:45:51)

quote:

A minor 7th flat 5, AKA A "half-diminished"


Great, yet another name for it! What is half diminished about it?
Because when they were looking for a name for it, the farmer outside his window was cutting a lamb in half?...[8D]



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Elie -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:47:10)

quote:

Guys... remember Jason's Minera instructions? Without knowing the chords I doubt you could do anything with them.

just look them up in any theory book or even guitar-pro [8D]



[Awaiting Approval]

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rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:49:44)

quote:

just look them up in any theory book or even guitar-pro


Tried that, they are not all there and the same chords are named differently, like you can see above. I think it's important to understand the nomenclature... which I will ( I think) but it should be simpler than this and there should only be one clear way of naming things, without all the hidden stuff you are already supposed to know... if x than y, if y than z except when x and y then b...



rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:51:03)

Jason, I see your mouth moving but I can't hear anything [8D] There's a delay...



chester -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 19:54:50)

quote:

For Am7b5, you should know that the A is also diminished... it tells you the 5 is, the 7 is but nothing about the 3rd....


The m tells you that the chord is minor (Am7b5).

I don't understand what problems you're having with the diminished. The 7b5 is also called a half-diminished because the triad (first three notes) is a diminished triad but the 7 is minor. A fully diminished chord is built of all minor thirds and its 7th is diminished (aka major sixth).

It's really not that complicated and just like you said--it's the only way for us to be able to put the sounds into words. Or else how would you describe a chord progression to someone who is not there with you?

It might seem complicated at first, but believe me keep at it and you'll suddenly realize that it's actually very simple.



rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 20:00:24)

quote:

I don't understand what problems you're having with the diminished. The 7b5 is also called a half-diminished because the triad (first three notes) is a diminished triad but the 7 is minor. A fully diminished chord is built of all minor thirds and its 7th is diminished (aka major sixth).


Thanks, I understand the reason for the half diminished now.

On the Am7b5 my problem is that isn't that just an A diminished with a 7th. And so wouldn't be simpler just to call it a Adim - 7? No because the Adim7 really means Adim - dim7

I guess I don't know where the qualifiers (m, maj, dim...) apply to, the letter in front or after or both in the case of Adim7.



XXX -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 20:10:33)

Adim7 =

A - C - Eb - Gb

3 minor triads right? And now heres the trick...

Gbdim7 =

Gb - A - C - Eb

the same thing for Ebdim7, Cdim7.

btw i agree with you on the 7th thing. But with diminished chords you just have to keep in mind that there are only diminished triads, and no other intervalls.



chester -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 20:43:13)

quote:


I guess I don't know where the qualifiers (m, maj, dim...) apply to, the letter in front or after or both in the case of Adim7.


A more specific question. Great--I can work with that.

So..... Let's start with triads. Every chord is built from three notes that are a third apart (also called stacked-thirds). There are two kinds of thirds-Major (2 steps) and minor (1.5 steps). From these thirds you can make four types of triads (three note combinations)- Major (M3-m3), minor (m3-M3), diminished (m3-m3), and augmented (M3-M3). So if a chord is called Gm it's a minor triad, G is Major (usualy NOT written Gmaj), Gdim diminished, and Gaug is augmented. (Note-don't worry about the augmented too much, you hardly see them.) Does this make sense?

Now there's the 7th chords. Do you know about them? What is the significance of the 7?



Guest -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 21:56:35)

quote:

have never seen a conductor shouting to his orchestra Am7b5 before


...oddly enough it happened two weeks ago while working with the state opera here on a piazolla tango
that is a wierd bit of syncronicity...
well not so much shouting but lets 'pick it up from the Am7b5 chord in bar 32...
true!



Guest -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 22:03:24)

quote:

Now there's the 7th chords. Do you know about them? What is the significance of the 7?

means the seventh degree of the scale is added to the chord
for example
C E G a C major triad right?
from the Cmajor scale
C D E F G A B C
by adding the thirds....C E G next being B right?
so C major 7th is C E G B

Then theres dominant sevenths...in which the 7th is flattened or [belonging to F major]
so
C E G Bb

guitar pro is pretty useless as far as default chord symbols go unless you already know them...



rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 22:18:15)

Thanks Chester, yes, I understand the 4 types of triads.

I don't know what the significance of the 7th is but I understand that when a 7th is added. I know that that 7th can be added to the 4 types of triad and in 3 different flavors, minor, major, diminished. I suppose you can't have an augmented 7th because it would just give you your tonic.

I'm learning this from another site as I am writing this, this one is pure theory, does not use guitar chord names. And so, here I see that each of the 3 7th, when combined with the 4 different triad types, have specific names, for example, the minor 7 goes with the minor triad and, as Deniz said, a diminished 7 can only go with a diminished triad.

So for my Am7b5, it's still figuring out what the m applies to that confuses me. The 5th is flat, the m applies to the A or to the 7 or both?
Since the 5th is flat that means the 3rd is flat too, so I figure the m applies to the 7. But I ask, if the 7 is minor by default and a flat 5 means a diminished chord. Why not just right Adim7? Or is this wrong?



Ramon Amira -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 22:34:30)

Am9Augb5Dim#13SusAdd4

(just a typical modern flamenco guitar chord)[:D]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 15 2010 22:35:47)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 16 2010 3:39:06



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 22:39:51)

quote:

(just a typical modern flamenco guitar chord)


Taranta Chord - F#11(b9)



XXX -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 22:51:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVal

the diminished chord has a natural 7th...not a lowered one
diminished always refers to the fifth by default
[Augmented means the 5th is raised]
it also contains the 6th in the chord
so
A dim is A C Eb F#
A dim 7th is A C Eb F# G#


No.
Adim would just be A - C - Eb, no seven implied here.
And yes the seven IS also diminished.

I found a good site explaining this:

Superlocrian: Diminished Chord
Root - min 2nd - min 3rd - dim 4th - dim 5th - min 6th - dim 7th

Some of the chords found might be new to your musical vocabulary. They can help you in your compositions and increase your options when writing a piece of music.

For the chords that are familiar to you such as the minor 7th, Major 7th or 7th chord you may find new phrasing options by using the corresponding harmonic minor modes. Imagine for example playing over a G7 chord vamp over which most players would use a G Mixolydian mode. Why not borrow the Phrygian Dominant mode to make your phrasing sound a bit different? This can be done because the Phrygian Dominant mode works over a 7th chord. Mixing church modes with harmonic minor modes can be a great way to develop new improvisational ideas and add interest to you leads.

http://www.jamplay.com/articles/harmonic-minor-modes.html



Rain -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 22:51:37)

Never play a chord that you don't know the name of DarkElieDraven. Or use a word that you don't know the meaning of.

I never tried to learn chord names because it is useless in my opinion
I have never seen a conductor shouting to his orchestra Am7b5 before

Maybe not but Ive heard musicians I have jammed with scream out all types of chords, and ones understanding of the chord resulted in harmony.

A blind person who has never seen a Picasso painting has no idea what he is missing, same holds true for those who have no interest in learning theory.



rogeliocan -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 22:51:38)

quote:

the diminished chord has a natural 7th...not a lowered one


that is where my mistake is then, I understood that 7th for C scale was Bb. I understood that 7th and minor 7th were the same. So that was wrong correct?
C7 is C major triad with B added, not Bb, correct?



mrMagenta -> RE: Music theory is way too complicated (Nov. 15 2010 23:10:54)

Hate to dissapoint you again.. but C7 has Bb and Cmaj7 has B.



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