Aren't people great? (..not) (Full Version)

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Jon Boyes -> Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 27 2005 8:57:07)

Had a long chat with Mercedes (dance class intructor) yesterday about various things, and I asked her whether she was teaching a new flamenco dance class that I'd heard about, taking place about 20 miles away in a village hall. (In Dartington - an affluent area full of rich people as Grant will tell you, as he studied there).

No, she said, it was more than likely one of her ex students. Apparently this happens quite often. People (with no previous experince) will turn up at her classes for a few weeks, learn some basic steps, then go back to where they came from and set up a flamenco dance class at their local art centre/village hall/whatever, effectively in competition to Mercedes as locals will then go there rather than make the journey. People who are really keen will of course make the journey and study with Mercedes, but the market for this is very small in the UK as we all know, and the majority of people in the beginners dance class are really just curious and trying it out for a bit of fun. You know, Vive Espana and all that.

Ha bloody ha.

Nothing wrong with healthy competition, of course, but these are gringos with a few hours experience and some basic moves under their belt, whilst Mercedes is a pro who has worked in several companys in Spain, and makes a meagre living out of teaching flamenco dance in the UK.

She is quite bewildered about it all - says that in Spain people just wouldn't do this sort of thing. Of course, there's nothing she can do about it. Just another way for some people to make a quick buck at someone else's expense.

The British are just great, aren't they?

Jon



Ron.M -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 27 2005 13:14:48)

Jon,
There was this American guy I knew in Madrid who was taking lessons off one of the top guitarists from Chinitas tablao for 100 pesetas a time.
He would always keep an eye out for any newbies walking around with a guitar case and backpack looking a bit lost and offer them lessons for 200 pesetas a time, and also recommend his pension for accommodation, since he got commission on that too from the landlady. LOL!
He just lived by wheeling and dealing to survive!

cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 27 2005 15:05:35)

Jon,
if you were really sharp, you'd go over to that other city and offer your services as a guitarerro.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 27 2005 15:10:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Jon,
if you were really sharp, you'd go over to that other city and offer your services as a guitarerro.


I hope you're kidding Mike. I don't believe in shafting the people I work with.

Jon



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 27 2005 16:23:23)

Yes, I was kidding.



Escribano -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 27 2005 18:14:47)

Supply and demand guys. Not for it or against it but you can charge what will people will pay and if poor flamenco is more "convenient" than good flamenco, many will end up with poor flamenco.

It is now cheaper for me to fly from the UK to Granada for flamenco than park the car and take a train to London (a journey of 35 miles)! Crazy but I am not complaining. If any of you fly from outside Europe to Spain, fly through London.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 28 2005 0:24:34)

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Escribano -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 28 2005 18:39:02)

quote:

I don't quite understand why the dance teacher in question would not just get her students to sign a form whereby they would agree not to open up a dance class within x kms of her studio .......


That would probably be an invalid contract in the UK. Neither could the teacher forbid employees from setting up a school right next door.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 28 2005 18:51:13)

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Kate -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 28 2005 19:03:32)

I had heard that that this type of contract is standard in UK for hairdressers when employed by a salon, stating if they leave they will not set up in business within a certain radius of their fomer employer. Don;t see why it shouldn't work for dance teachers. Personally I would want a teacher with a bit more experience than simply having done some classes themselves. I'm amazed anyone would want classes from some-one with such little experience or knowledge.

Kate



Escribano -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 28 2005 19:31:03)

quote:

I had heard that that this type of contract is standard in UK for hairdressers when employed by a salon, stating if they leave they will not set up in business within a certain radius of their fomer employer


I stand corrected, they cannot prevent you setting up, only not within a 1/2 mile & no soliciting clients.

quote:

Covenants are enforceable only if they protect a legitimate proprietary interest: Herbert Morris Ltd v Saxelby [1916] AC 688, HL. On the facts [a clause] could safeguard the employers’ client base, which is protectable by a restrictive convenant. [This clause] is known as a non-solicitation clause, which is aimed at protecting customer connection. Lord Parker in Herbert Morris spoke of ‘personal knowledge of and influence over’ clients. It may be doubted whether customers will be so influenced by salespersons that they will keep coming back but the judges have treated milk rounds-persons, hair dressers, and estate agents as having such influence



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 0:39:47)

These kind of contracts are common and enforceable in the US. Nasty buggers.



Skai -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 1:40:52)

Entrepreneurship? No way, I consider this as insult to the tradition.



Jeff H -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 4:17:56)

A "non compete claus" as a condition of employment is common in the US
and becoming moreso

The definition of entrepreneur means to engage in a completey new type of business or conduct business in a new or novel way..

An entrepreneur is NOT someone who simply opens up a business

Someone who does what you describe with the dance lessons would be known in the US as a (business) whore and a thief and unscrupulous..kinda yuppie like
behaviour. ( what ever you can get away with)

Bad form; and one of the reasons I refuse to have employees.

Jeff



Skai -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 11:42:01)

I think the reason why this doesn't happen in Spain is because flamenco is all around them and anyone could tell the difference between a pro or a fraud. While in other countries, anyone who dances to flamenco music, dresses like a flamenco dancer and knows a few steps that remind them of 'flamenco', is considered a FLAMENCO dancer. Pfft.. In fact this reminds me of Firefingers and all those 'flamenco guitarists' who use steel string acoustics. They use some flamenco techniques and compose Spanish sounding pieces, voila! We've got The Best Flamenco Guitarist!



Ron.M -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 12:06:52)

quote:

A "non compete claus" as a condition of employment is common in the US


How about the Sanity Clause then?
(Don't be stoopid....There ain't no Sanity Clause.... Groucho Marx[:D][:D])

Ron



PacoPaella -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 16:31:47)

This stealing of students is a questionable practise for sure but let me remind you of this guy

http://www.flamencolopez.de/

who apparently ripped some Moraito tracks and sells them as "his masterpiece". I recon he disabled downloading of the tracks now...



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 18:25:20)

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think: that's business.... I got a call from my partner, who wanted to sign me up for a quintuplet. Who is the agent? Kati, who is MY contact (although I have never played for her), and who I referred to Arturo when I was doublebooked. So I did the groundwork, I sent my CD, I sent my materials and cold called, and my thanks? To have her hire Arturo, who then hires me (for less than what he is getting, I'm sure.) Serves me right for referring him!



Ricardo -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 19:29:34)

Miguel, sorry, slightly off the topic, do you know Chris Burton Jacome in Phoenix?

I personally feel teachers should encourage students to seek out different teachers, no matter their reps or nationalities, level, style, etc. Also, I believe a good student can learn what is important, even from a bad teacher. But a bad student can't learn anything from the best teacher in the world.

Also, I feel the best way to learn is to teach what you know or just have learned, to someone else. Trying to find a new way to explain something you know, to somebody else, is a good way to help yourself understand it on a deeper level. I remember a teacher friend had a total begginer guitar student who had like 12 students of her own, who where all only one week behind her! And she charged more too...no just kidding.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 20:09:31)

quote:

I believe a good student can learn what is important, even from a bad teacher. But a bad student can't learn anything from the best teacher in the world.


Ricardo,
You are a very wise man.

cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 29 2005 20:20:08)

Richard,
yes I know Chris. He is our "up and comer" around here, has been for several years. I took a few lessons from him, but we weren't really compatible. He taught me a long silencio and some of his own falsetas, tried to help me keep in better compas. But I realized that either I am simply not a good student, or he is not the right teacher for me. I would never practice what he gave me, just my own stuff!

We have a great player here named Miguel Rodriguez, who I am more interested in learning from. I can bring him a very esoteric question of technique or music, and he can usually set me right in one short sentence. And he plays so well that it inspires me to be great! Although he normally won't accept my phone calls, and he alternates telling me to practice more or that I'll never be any good!



Escribano -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 30 2005 1:19:19)

In technology consulting we say
quote:

"you can be a bad consultant with a good customer but it is impossible to be a good consultant with a bad customer"



Ron.M -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 30 2005 13:16:23)

quote:

This stealing of students is a questionable practise for sure but let me remind you of this guy

http://www.flamencolopez.de/

who apparently ripped some Moraito tracks and sells them as "his masterpiece". I recon he disabled downloading of the tracks now...


Paco,
I think I heard some of his stuff a while back and I thought he was good.
So are you saying that it's not him playing?
Or is it just Moraito's falsetas he's nicked?

cheers

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 30 2005 15:54:18)

I can't read what they are saying on the site, but it seems he was trying to pass off tracks from "Morao y Oro", as his own playing. Maybe to sell CD's or book gigs? Anyway, the links to the mp3's are now broken.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 30 2005 20:30:06)

quote:

but it seems he was trying to pass off tracks from "Morao y Oro", as his own playing.


Ricardo (y Paco),
How did you find that out?
It's not like he's got on his site... "Please disregard these mp3's as I actually didn't make them."
Have I been out of this or something. LOL!

I would find it pretty weird for a guitarist to be passing something else off as his own.

I mean, the whole philosophy of the challenge of the task would prevent you from doing so, wouldn't it?
I think.....?

cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 30 2005 20:33:30)

Ron,
what are you talking about? I can easily see why an unscrupulous person would use whatever means possible to get a gig.



Ron.M -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 30 2005 21:09:31)

Yeah Mike,
You can con folk, sure, for double glazing or selling snake oil.
But, why would you put up mp3's of something which you can't actually do?
It would be a bit like sending an "Internet " girlfiend a picture of Mel Gibson, meanwhile you look like frog. LOL!
What's the point in that?

cheers

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 30 2005 23:07:57)

quote:

What's the point in that?



To get a piece of tail, no? The music was from the disc, if you know it. I remember someone linking to it before, and at first I thought it was just his background music for the site, but those 3 "examples" of HIS playing are deffinantly Moraito. Now they don't play when I click on them, but they did. Could be he DOES play those pieces, and the guy doing his site could not get decent audio of him, so used Morao's CD. For the sake of getting a gig I could see why they think that is practical. It is not like he is coming on a flamenco forum saying, "hey guys check me out, what do you think of my playing?". Someone discovered that site, but maybe it is just promotional for the guy locally (in Holland?). Actually, Dutch people are really good at flamenco and would know the difference. Not sure if it is Dutch though. Can anyone translate it, there where the sound samples are?

Ricardo



Jon Boyes -> RE: Aren't people great? (..not) (Jan. 31 2005 8:20:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Also, I feel the best way to learn is to teach what you know or just have learned, to someone else. Trying to find a new way to explain something you know, to somebody else, is a good way to help yourself understand it on a deeper level.


That's certainly true. There is a close relationshiop between teaching and learning.

Jon



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