A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=148504



Message

apak -> A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 18 2010 3:06:40)

I have been wondering, for those of you that have clocked more than 5-10 years of playing flamenco...

How easy or hard is it for you to tackle some of the standard classical guitar repertoire? Say, something in the grade 7 or 8 level?

And I am not referring to your ability to sight read, or even producing that authentic classical tone, but rather just the sheer mechanical dexterity to pull off the left hand changes and polyphonic right hand note production?



KMMI77 -> RE: A curious question for the advanced players here (Oct. 18 2010 4:38:21)

Well i am working on the third movement of la Cartedral by Barrios at the moment. It feels quite comfortable to play and i am really enjoying it. It is requiring a lot of slow practice just like flamenco guitar.



HemeolaMan -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 18 2010 19:36:04)

everything is easy if you know how to practice.

The left hand will move as fast as you tell it to, as long as you are clear and concise with your instructions.

The game is really more about getting your brain to do those things. speed is easy. knowing where to start and end each movement and the shortest path between is the hard part.



at_leo_87 -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 18 2010 20:33:37)

im not an advanced player and i haven't been playing for 5-10 years but i find classical repertoire very difficult.

not so much technique, but remembering everything note for note. and plus, there's no room for improvisation.

so mentally, it's REALLY hard. anybody else feel the same?



apak -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 18 2010 21:01:04)

I wouldn't consider myself advanced by any loooong stretch, and I feel that way about CG material. Just the mechanics of it is very unforgiving. That's why I was curious about others here.

One thing I do find easier is the loose interpretation of rhythm and timing... no clicking of metronome drilling a hole in my brain. YAY!



jg7238 -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 18 2010 23:40:21)

Playing Classical and Flamenco guitar have their similarities but are in reality two very different ways of playing. I believe that both styles require a certain level of dexterity for both hands. I hope I don't get knocked for this but I think if you are a very good flamenco guitar player with no classical guitar background, it will be easier to learn any level of classical guitar (with maybe the exception of certain Bach works) than say an advanced classical guitar player trying to learn flamenco guitar. There are exceptions of course but in general I think it is fair to state that.



Guest -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 0:05:15)

quote:

anybody else feel the same?

yes and no
depending on the piece i guess
but reducing it down to a set of chords and melody makes the process easier plus the ability to interpret and improvise to a certain degree...ie add more chord tones, cadenza's etc...
most are so stuck in segovia's fingerings etc that really we have alot more freedom than we think...his was just one view...time to move on...

la Cartedral by Barrios
the stover fingering is fairly far removed from barrios
alot of thumb on the original recording...different right hand pattern
as well as some different notes on the left...
if he can publish a variation on the work {which seems to be the standard score] cant see why anyboby else can do the same..like the vid of raphael...prefer this one to say williams...different feel....
guess things get institutionalized...



Guest -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 1:18:23)

just a thought
words like beginner, intermediate and advanced are derogatory terms...we are all advancing players[:)]



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 6:30:32)

IMO a flamenco guitarist has more advanced technique than a classical one no doubt, on the other hand classical guitarists know a lot more about
music-harmony, Gammes ( scales ), Gammes relativity (majeures et mineures) there are more than 24 Gammes a good classical guitarist should have a solid understanding of them also classical guitarists express music in different way they always include Nuances in their music like : piano,forte,fortissimo,crescendo,diminuendo,appele etc ...
quote:


One thing I do find easier is the loose interpretation of rhythm and timing... no clicking of metronome drilling a hole in my brain. YAY!

if you're talking about classical music .. thats not true at all
the timing is extremely important in classic music maybe its just not tricky like flamenco but there are a lot of tricky classical pieces
remember that classic players always have movement styles they should know and obey like andante,andantino,allegro,moderato ........
also they always follow the croche pointee/double-croche
wat I mean is the general rythm 2/4|3/4|4/4|6/8 ....etc...which varies during the piece ..because all classical players read music .. nd half flamenco ones dont
at the end don't misunderstand me .. I adore the both styles I was just making some points clearer .
regards , elie



CarloJuan -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 6:42:55)

haha another serendipitous post!!!

apak, do you happen to be a member of the delcamp CG forum? if so i am a member of it and my name is philippine guitar.

I am not an advanced flamenco player, that's beacuse i started the other way. I started classical guitar and then learned flamenco as i advanced. I believe that both compliment and contradict each other. Baffling isn't it? Both have different styles of playing and approach but somehow the care-free, passionate, rhythmic pulsation of flamenco is liberating and really helps in playing classical repertoire performances to not care too much, let go and feel free with the music, and enjoy. Most of us are so exasperated by Bach, and to not enjoy his polyphonic and mind exercising, stimulating music is blasphemy! haha. just kidding.

On the other hand, classical guitar helps flamenco guitar didactically through systematic and organized way of practicing. Constant awareness of tone (flamenco one), movement, tension relax, etc etc. Could really quantum leap one's technique if he develops an inquisitive ever searching mind set.

Lastly, they contradict because there techniques are different. But in the end it all boils down i guess to tone, feel and aire, and compas compas compas.

Like me, i try to make a way to not deviate much from my classical technique but try to modify it when it comes to flamenco to produce that tone and sound that i intend

Good luck and God bless you!

Sincerely



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 6:57:20)

quote:

they contradict because there techniques are different.

no thats not true [8D] check Mr. Grisha Goryachev he plays both classical and flamenco music without any problem, I do the same sometimes I do some classical performances and sometimes I do flamencos and there is not problem at all. its my opinion anyway .



Guest -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 7:20:42)

quote:

there is not problem at all.


no problem at all
IMO
all we are doing is playing music on the guitar
technique is a personal discovery...[:)]
good to get advice but there is no right or wrong in any genre...just execution...and intent...feel
by the same idea it is also worthwhile to study jazz and improvisation to improve your classical playing...

[:)]



CarloJuan -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 7:46:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkElieDraven

no thats not true [8D] check Mr. Grisha Goryachev he plays both classical and flamenco music without any problem, I do the same sometimes I do some classical performances and sometimes I do flamencos and there is not problem at all. its my opinion anyway .


I stand corrected. :D post some of your classical stuff m8 would want to hear some! [:)]



CarloJuan -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 7:48:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlVal

no problem at all
IMO
all we are doing is playing music on the guitar
technique is a personal discovery...[:)]
good to get advice but there is no right or wrong in any genre...just execution...and intent...feel
by the same idea it is also worthwhile to study jazz and improvisation to improve your classical playing...

[:)]


Great nugget of wisdom! i honestly am relieved with what you said. thanks! :D



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 8:02:37)

quote:

I stand corrected. :D post some of your classical stuff m8 would want to hear some!

here you go
Sakura (Theme & Variation) ar.Yuquijiro Yocoh
and plz don't mind the mess .I took it long time ago // for my students thats why its so detailed [;)]



apak -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 17:39:26)

Great stuff, Elie! Thanks for sharing.



apak -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 17:44:43)

quote:

Like me, i try to make a way to not deviate much from my classical technique but try to modify it when it comes to flamenco to produce that tone and sound that i intend


There are great differences for sure, but I find that the left hand is what slows me down in CG, while in flamenco, it's both the left and right hand that I have challenges with.

I also have difficulty adjusting the sitting position. I spent several months getting very comfortable sitting in the classical position, and to my great dismay, my flamenco teacher says that it is unacceptable for me to practice flamenco in the classical position, and I have to get used to one of the traditional "on the right thigh" holding position.

Maybe I'll get used to it, but it feels like my left-hand ability diminishes greatly and I have a lot less control.



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 20:55:52)

yes mate he's telling you that because some flamenco techniques will be hard to do in the classical posture like ( alzapua also rasgueo .... )
so you need to find the best way suits you ..
I will post some postures for you :
the classical one :

or paco's posture



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 20:57:37)

like this :



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 20:59:22)

this :



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 19 2010 21:00:36)

finally :



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



CarloJuan -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 20 2010 4:46:44)

Great stuff man, Elie! Thanks for sharing. I like sakura variations!



apak -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 20 2010 8:46:03)

Thanks for the tips... I remember those from my graf-martinez books too.

I'll see if I can convince my prof if I can hold in the closest thing I'm used to... the "sabica's position".

Or when I feel like playing flamenco is way too easy, and I'm just shredding way too fast and way too good for my own good, and I can do everything forward and backwards while balancing two bowling balls on my head, then I'll try the "traditional posture" for extreme challenge. [8|]



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 20 2010 13:25:11)

quote:

I'll see if I can convince my prof if I can hold in the closest thing I'm used to... the "sabica's position".

mate I studied with a classic guitar prof and he was always mad at me because I play flamenco beside classic music saying it will affect my technique , my tune , my posture etc .....
but I couldn't understand why !? and honestly I didnt listen I just kept working on both styles and I'm doing alright .
when I play flamenco I usually sit like paco . and when it comes to classic music I play using the classical posture ( in my vid im sittin like paco coz im alone there are no people to judge the way im sitting )

so in brief I guess you should listen to your prof as you're learning classic music and when you get home just work on flamenco using the posture you like without harming yourself .
good luck

quote:

Great stuff man, Elie! Thanks for sharing. I like sakura variations!

Thanx here is another piece called Liber Tango by Astor Piazolla hope you like and be convinced that a classical player can play flamenco as well and ViceVersa [8D]




apak -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 20 2010 18:53:02)

Astor Piazzola is the shiznit. His tangos arranged on the guitar sound great and you did a great job. Here is Tomatito's rendition:



But I have to say, Michel Camilo on the piano overwhelms Tomatito's guitar.

Maybe you already know, there are some nice arrangements of his "Milonga del Angel" and especially "Verano Porteno".



Guest -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 20 2010 22:54:24)

quote:

Astor Piazzola is the shiznit

[:)]
currently employed by the state opera here performing piazzolla's 'maria de buenos aires'...the interplay between the guitar and bandoneon is awesome...really enjoying this gig...damn only 3 performances left[:(]



Elie -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 21 2010 11:18:12)

quote:

Maybe you already know, there are some nice arrangements of his "Milonga del Angel" and especially "Verano Porteno".

yea [:D] I've played both lol and they kick ass
so creative thats all wat will I say .. specially Verano porteño



Stu -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 21 2010 15:27:05)

does graf-martinez look like larry david?!



CarloJuan -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 21 2010 16:18:24)

Astor Piazzola is my Chuck Norris



Pimientito -> RE: A q for the advanced flamenco players - your ability to tackle CG repertoire (Oct. 22 2010 18:59:08)

quote:

does graf-martinez look like larry david?


I think you will find that its only the the most very die hard Paco de Lucia fan who will shave their head and grow the back long to copy the master. Olé

Getting back on topic I would say that as a player of both classical and flamenco that Flamenco really helps your classical playing but classical does not help your flamenco playing. I have now arrived at the conclusion that a lot of classical technique taught outside of Spain does not really make best use of the arpeggios and rasgueos that flamenco players use and this is simple snobbery. Its clear many Spanish composers based their themes on folk music and it seems crazy not to play music like de Falla with anything other than flamenco rasgueos. I use a hybrid technique now and I believe the classical guitar sounds best with Tarrega like training of the left hand and a more flamenco trained right hand.



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET