RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Full Version)

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Garyw1960 -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 21 2005 0:11:00)

James
I asked a similar question and all the replies said Yamaha. I wonder if the strings you use could be a factor in your bass tone, or maybe your style with your thumb. I can only speak as a classical player but my experience is that I can make the bass sound totally different by the angle of my thumb, angle that I hold the guitar, length of nail........so hitting the string prior to the flesh.......many different factors. Are you playing the strings nearer the bridge this will give the bass a higher tone.

BTW I am going to London this week to get a Flamenco and will probably end up with the Yamaha. I have the good fortune to have access to 2nd hand classical and flamenco gitars at irregular intervals and can say that the best guitar flamenco speaking I ever tried was an Estaso (Sp?) priced at £750. The sweetest guitar ever passing my hands was a Ramirez with a 664 scale which played with no effort at about £4000!!!

Kind regards

Gary



JBASHORUN -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 21 2005 18:05:21)

Hi Gary, and thanks for your message.

I play my pulgar (thumb) strokes with the fleshy part of the tip of my thumb. And do so approximately in the middle between the bridge and the soundhole (as my teacher instructed me to do so).
However, I find myself practising quite a lot on basic classical guitars, as my yamaha usually stays safely in its case. Therefore, I sometimes do play a bit closer to the bridge, which I find gives a "more flamenco" sound. The problem with this is that the strings are quite tight around this area, and it puts extra pressure on the plucking fingers. I also find my hand gradually "drifting" back toward the soundhole unless I concentrate.
The strings I use are D'addario J49s for trebles and LaBella Flamenco's for bass (although I have been meaning to switch to Savarez Alliance basses, but haven't got round to buying a set!).
My strings and technique may be part of the problem, but I suspect it would only be part, and that some fault might lie with the guitar itself, as its only a "cheapo guitar" as Flamencos go.
If you are heading down to London to buy a Yamaha, I would recommend paying a visit to the "Unplugged" guitar shop in Hanwell (West London). I did a fairly comprehensive search of all London guitar shops, and found that it was by far the cheapest stockist.




James



Garyw1960 -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 21 2005 23:38:38)

James

thanks for the info regarding Unplugged.

I think I would be using the yamaha rather than leaving it in the case, being spruce topped the sound should improve with age and playing. You are lucky to find a teacher of Flamenco in your area I am having to rely on tutor books although we do appear to have our very own Flamenco group and monthly pena based in Norwich I have yet to get there. With luck guitarists at the pena may be able to give me a few pointers www.flamenco-norfolk.co.uk. Kind regards

Gary



GUITARMANR -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 22 2005 0:09:49)

Hi James,

Hi,
I'm sure you will enjoy playing your Yamaha just as I do as it has a lot going for it compaired to others of the same price.
About the sound, you are right.
It dose have a lot of low end to it. That is what I was trying to say when I said it was mellow. That would not be bad if it had the treble to match, which it dose not with the stock strings. What I did was find strings with a lot of treble response but light on the bass. The stock Yamaha strings are very heavy in the low end department. I now have a set of La Bella 2001 hard tension flamenco strings on it. These are the black and silver set, and they sound a lot better.
Less boomy and a more solid treble output. I put them on one at a time and compared them directly with the originals to see the real difference, and there really is one.
I hope this helps you out a bit.

Take care and keep playing!

Rich



Garyw1960 -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 22 2005 1:10:53)

String supplier in the Uk.............

Try these people.very efficient and polite.
http://www.zencatalog.com/Stringbuster/Catalog_La_Bella_57.html
Regards

Gary



Skai -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 22 2005 9:45:31)

Congrats James! I've tried it several times in shops and it is impressive for the price. In terms of setup, playbility and consistency. My only problem with Yamahas is that their gutars are much softer than say, an Alhambra, for the same price. And yes the Yamaha flamenco has a rather bassy tone, not very flamenco. But look at it's price!

I tried a Manuel Rodriguez around the same price (both cost SGD$600+ over here) and it has a much more flamenco tone for rasguedos. Probably because of the low action, but it buzzes more than a Yamaha.

But don't compare it to expensive guitars, it's ridiculous to expect so much and you'll just get frustrated anyway.

On the other hand, comparing a SGD$600+ Yamaha with my $1100+ Alhambra would be more interesting. I already expected that something around the price range of my Alhambra would be neither classical nor flamenco. It does have a noticeably better tone than the Yamaha and volume MUCH louder. Action is also better but still not up to flamenco standards. But it's full solid and has been breaking in nicely. Rasguedos aren't that satisfying though. Has some character so I don't find it that worthless.

My Alhambra 2C classical came back from the repairshop not too long ago and I LOVE the price vs quality ratio! Alot louder than a Yamaha classical more expensive, Spanish tone. Action nicely done up by the repair guys. You can't find a better guitar where I stay for SGD$300+. Just do the currency conversion. The Alhambra is more fickle with your mistakes in playing as compared to a Yamaha though, it seems to amplify mistakes. It's also abit too treble for a classical.



PacoPaella -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 22 2005 16:15:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skai

_____________________________

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.


[;)] Haha that is really a good one!!



JBASHORUN -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 22 2005 17:25:32)

quote:

Try some Enrique Iglesias for some great cante.


Haha that is really a good one!!




Hey man, don't make fun of Enrique!!! [:@][;)][:D]


Cheston, thanks for your words on the Yamaha. I know I shouldn't be too hard on it, after all, it is only my first Flamenco guitar and I paid next to nothing (in comparison) for it. As another member once told me, "by all means buy a cheap Flamenco guitar to begin practising on" but "be prepared that you will need to upgrade to a better one in a short while". I think my next guitar will have to be "more Flamenco", so maybe I will go for one of Anders'... unless I decide I am good enough to build my own!
Glad to hear your Alhambra is breaking in nicely... hopefully when your GM book arrives you can upload some audio clips for us all to hear what it sounds like!


Cheers,


James



Skai -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 22 2005 22:27:27)

LOL [:D]

Anyway, I finally got Volume 1 over a month after I got my Volume 2. Damn I hate playing flamenco without audio examples and the CD is in Vol 1! I haven't had the time to learn anything yet, as I've been concentrating on classical at the moment. I did read through the book alongside my Pumping Nylon book which I ordered, 3 fantastic books, extremely worth the money.

You can hear my guitar if you want. I used it on Capricho Arabe, though it isn't a good way to test a flamenco guitar by playing classical pieces. Till now, all I've done is expand on the solea I knew and continue doing bulerias rasguedos. [:D] No new flamenco, just more on the same stuff I learnt beforehand.

I've also been doing other compas strumming and now all I need are some falsetas to play them with. [:@]

Cheston



JBASHORUN -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 23 2005 16:11:15)

quote:

I finally got Volume 1 over a month after I got my Volume 2.


Good to hear it. Now you'll be practising the same Soleas and Tangos as me! [:D]

By the way, if you had a chance to listen to it, what did you make of that Paco Y Camaron cante song I sent you? Will you be throwing away all your solo guitar CDs and stocking up on cante ones? [:D]


James



Ryan002 -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 25 2005 13:35:49)

Yamaha is possibly the most underrated brand out there. They make really good products, and their high end equipment is comparable to that of many other famous brands. People who use electrics realized this a long time ago, but it has yet to catch on amongst people who use acoustics...it may be possible that the low price actually works against them, since many people have certain expectations that it will sound bad when they see it's cheap.



Skai -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 25 2005 14:34:48)

The only problem I have with Yamaha classicals are their lack of volume and character. I particularly favour a Spanish tone that even my cheap Alhambra gives me. Other than that a Yamaha is extremely stable, consistent and a good value for money. At higher budgets, I wouldn't get a Yamaha though, especially since I've something against that name. [:D]



JBASHORUN -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 25 2005 16:25:35)

quote:

I wouldn't get a Yamaha though, especially since I've something against that name.


I think thats part of the problem... many people dislike Yamahas because they are made in the Far East rather than Spain. Also Yamaha have a habit of making almost everything possible (such as electronic items) and some people think its best to focus just on one thing and do it as well as possible, rather than go for globalisation and make just an average product.
But to be honest, Yamaha do still make some quality products... I have a Yamaha SG electric guitar and also a Gibson SG, and the tone and quality of sound between the two is very comparable.



James



Skai -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 25 2005 20:53:15)

Something against Asian brands? But I'm asian! [:D] By the way, I may not like Yamaha but Kohno, another Japanese brand produces really excellent classicals. I have the fortune of using a Kohno that costs a few thousand SGD and tone-wise they're fantastic, very loud too. My issue with Yamaha is that they produce motocycles and other stuff not even remotely related to guitars.



Garyw1960 -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 26 2005 2:59:34)

Nothing against Yamaha or Asia from me. The classical guitars produced by the Chinese factories at little cost will force the market prices downwards as more people realise that quality can be had for little cost. The electric guitar market is better value in terms of cost and quality than it was 25 years ago and this is the way that the acoustic market will go. Which enterprising Spanish maker will take advantage of the the low labour costs and excellent quality product coming from the Asian based factories, and if they do not tell us will we ever know by the sound alone?..I doubt it!!



Mark2 -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 26 2005 8:01:52)

I think in that price range the yamaha is the only choice, unless you run across a steal in a used guitar, but I still think it's a crummy flamenco guitar. Low End? It has no low end! It's all trebly, and no lower mids either. It's all upper mids and high end to me. Mine does have some decent flamenco tone in the high end, but it's thin. It's a guitar to use that is dispensible-check it in at the airport and don't worry. And as Miguel says, play it in the heat, play it in the water, whatever, but realize it's a pretty weak flamenco guitar. I have no idea if it would make a good instrument to learn on, but I'd trade it up asap if that was the plan.



Ryan002 -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 28 2005 8:58:39)

Actually, there are less than a dozen companies in the world that truly specialize. Kraft for example, is actually Marlboro (so yes your cheese and milk come from a cigeratte company). Nokia actually makes toiletries and tyres as their main source of income (someone in Finland can probably verify this) Yamaha is merely more honest about this process. The people who make the instruments are not the same people who make boat motors, so it's really 2 seperate companies, no need to worry about a diluted skill base. Also, note that it is the Yamaha Group and not the Yamaha Corporation.

When I refer to "low end" and "mid-range" I refer not to tonal quality but pricing.

And it is perhaps forever true that asians tend to dislike asian brands. [:D]



Kate -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 28 2005 13:39:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002

Actually, there are less than a dozen companies in the world that truly specialize. Kraft for example, is actually Marlboro (so yes your cheese and milk come from a cigeratte company).



Not mine, our milk and butter are produced locally by a specialist company and all our cheese is from a local farm. Apart from when friends bring me over large chunks of mature cheddar from the UK. Mind you I suspect anyone who eats Kraft products probably doesn't actually care that they also make ciggarettes.

And yes you're right about Nokia. I know about them as Harold spent three years in Finland working for RCA.

Kate



JBASHORUN -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 28 2005 18:03:56)

quote:

Mind you I suspect anyone who eats Kraft products probably doesn't actually care that they also make ciggarettes.


LOL! very true. Although apparently Kraft did merge with Jacobs and Suchard at some point. So collectively they are responsible for lots of other products including "Jacob's Cream Crackers" and "Suchard Chocolate".

Ryan, you're right that many big companies do actually merge with other companies that produce other products. But as far as I know, Gibson only make guitar-related products and Fender and Ibanez do likewise.
The same applies for most of the luthiers in Spain... including Anders I suspect...


What's that? Anders has started selling cheese and cigarettes too?! [;)][:D]

I was just trying to say that given the choice between a cheap Flamenco guitar made in Taiwan and a cheap Flamenco guitar made in Spain, many aficionados (regardless of race) would opt for the Spanish guitar.
Taiwan is famous over here for its manufacturing industry, but unfortunately the products it makes are not usually associated with great quality or craftsmanship. Whether this is true or not is another matter.



James



Kate -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 28 2005 18:35:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ryan002
Nokia actually makes toiletries and tyres as their main source of income (someone in Finland can probably verify this)


Nokia also make Wellington boots !!!

Kate



gshaviv -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Nov. 28 2005 20:16:43)

quote:

Nokia actually makes toiletries and tyres as their main source of income (someone in Finland can probably verify this)


I'm not from Finland, but am familiar with the Nokia story having them as one of my customers in my business (my other - non flamenco - life). Nokia is interesting as they actually started out originally as a rubber company making tyres and boots. Their CEO didn't see the growth in rubber and decided to diversify to cell phones. Today cell phones is by far their main source of income, but they still operate the old rubber mill.



Francisco -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 11 2005 9:36:46)

quote:

Something against Asian brands?

Not here, Takamine EC132C Classical and Takamine EG334SC Steel String. They are both really awesome guitars. I've thought about selling them to pay for a custom, but can't seem to follow through with it.[;)]



geoffLW -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 28 2005 12:37:45)

Get on with it... perhaps a trip to Granada will convince you. I got back a week or so ago and stilll feel all warm inside from some of the guitars I tried. The shops there are different. they don't stand over you or get all patronising when you want to try a £2000 guitar. They understand YOU need to know the difference too.
I find strange things happen in the guitar world; twice, I've bought a 'cheaper' priced guitar over more expensive ones [Yamaha top of the range] and a similar thing happened in Granada... I fell in love with a little blonde Burguet 3F. For me it just did the biz... sounded brilliant; you know, bright. No dead G string, no BOOM in the bass strings. 500 euros. You Do need to play them though. I do buy off the page and I have seldom been disapointed with anything I've bought but I cannot imagine anyone buying a Flamenco for more than £200 off the net.



XXX -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 28 2005 12:41:16)

Just wanted to add that I always here bad things about that Yamaha, from folks that played it and not. I never played it, though.



PacoPaella -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 28 2005 14:57:36)

I find it amusing how people keep talking about "the yamaha" as if it were a car or cigarette. I have not ever found two equal guitars of any model. If you take ten of them you will find one outstanding, two nice, four average and the rest uninteresting; likewise, when someone tells you to buy the Yamaha 300gto xp because he has one and it totally rocks you cannot expect to buy one blind and have an instrument of same quality.

Like it or not, in the end theres no way around goin through the shops and testing them one by one.

Oh yes Granada is lovely, the shops are amazing and the cost of the guitars are massive below what they ask for them over here. Also i have been at Rafael Romeros shop in San Fernando and he has affordable and very playable instruments.



JBASHORUN -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 28 2005 15:39:03)

quote:

I find it amusing how people keep talking about "the yamaha" as if it were a car or cigarette. I have not ever found two equal guitars of any model. If you take ten of them you will find one outstanding, two nice, four average and the rest uninteresting;


This applies more to hand made guitars than factory made ones, as there are slight variations in the making process with each hand made guitar. But the variation in product should be fairly minimal with a factory made guitar like the Yamaha. the only differences in tone should come from the small details like different cuts of wood being used. But you may be right.
Yes, I'm sure there are one or two outstanding yamahas out there. But unfortunately mine isn't one of them, and I had to order it from scratch with a several month wait without even trying it. No one I spoke to even had the yamaha actually in stock.
yes, you can get some guitars that are cheap and sound good, but I would guess that they are very few and far between. otherwise, people wouldn't bother buying the expensive guitars.
As for me... I think I will sell my Yamaha. Just as soon as I can scrape together enough money to afford a better guitar like one of Anders', then I will upgrade.



James



Escribano -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 28 2005 16:03:57)

quote:

you can get some guitars that are cheap and sound good, but I would guess that they are very few and far between. otherwise, people wouldn't bother buying the expensive guitars.
As for me... I think I will sell my Yamaha. Just as soon as I can scrape together enough money to afford a better guitar like one of Anders', then I will upgrade.


My Bernal was cheap and sounded good but not compared to Anders' guitars, the brightest I have personally tried and I am looking forward to my Anders upgrade



XXX -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 28 2005 23:22:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PacoPaella

I find it amusing how people keep talking about "the yamaha" as if it were a car or cigarette. I have not ever found two equal guitars of any model. If you take ten of them you will find one outstanding, two nice, four average and the rest uninteresting;


This is a special case. I do not consider a mass-guitar a special case ;)

Besides if that was true, why would anyone bother about brand names?

Ps: Even the same cigar tastes different in different moments [:-][:D]



flyeogh -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 29 2005 9:10:13)

quote:

Even a cigar tastes different in different moments


Very true but a poor havana will always be better than the best Wills Whiff[:)]



Guest -> RE: BUYING A CHEAP BEGINNERS FLAMENCO GUITAR (Dec. 29 2005 15:36:47)

It's so true ole sport.

The same thing passes with Lafitte Rotschild. They are always different but always better than chateau Margaux [8D]

See you in the Squirrel hunting club.

BTW, I used Anders login, I couldn't remember my own.

Happy new year
Nimbus



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