Solera specs ??? (Full Version)

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satvic -> Solera specs ??? (Sep. 9 2010 1:50:08)

I think I've read everything I found online about how to make a solera. The problem is different sources tell different things. This diagram is what I came up with so far ...

Can you please recommend proper specs for a, b, c with these in mind:
1. Lowest amount of buzz possible while at 2.5mm at the 12th fret
2 10-11mm between the top and the strings at the bridge (don't know what that distance is called. Found out I can't play certain Spanish made guitars due to nails constantly catching the top)



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 9 2010 12:30:13)

Hi satvic,
Well, your first question is a little hard to quantify. It's entirely possible to get to 3/2.5 action and have just the right amount of buzz. I'll measure my solera a bit today and get back to you.

I'd say the 2-3 mm of dome is too much. I'd go with about 1.6 mm max. .065 inches (about 1.6 mm) across a guitar works out to about a 25 foot radius curve. So you can make yourself a 25' radius block to do the final sanding of the workboard and check that it's evenly curved. The block should be about 20" long, maybe 2" wide and 3" tall.

On your #1 you might not end up with the string height at the bridge that you want. Its kind of a trial and error thing on the first few.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 9 2010 21:38:07)

How much Doming you want is a personal choice, but I agree with Andy 2-3mm is excessive. I went with the Courtnal book on this and used 2mm maximum.
I also used his recommended 3mm falloff from body junction to end of neck
However, this is only a starting point to get you in the ballpark.
You can always shim the end of the neck to reduce forward tilt, it is harder to increase it

You need to realise that setting bridge height and action is done not just by setting up the solera initially but by tweaking the neck angle at the time you glue on the back, taking into account doming height, desired string height at the bridge, 12 fret string height, fretboard thickness, fret height etc.
Fairly easy to do once you get your head around the geometry.
I guess the main point is, if you want a particular bridge string height, you have to take control of it hather than just trusting to solera measurements.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 9 2010 22:59:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

I think I've read everything I found online about how to make a solera. The problem is different sources tell different things. This diagram is what I came up with so far ...


Satvic, don't let anyone decide your dome height for you. I've made several soleras using different dimensions and found the ideal dome height for me is 3mm. What you do with the bracing, top thickness and tapering of the top is all relative to the amount of doming you use. 3mm is not at all uncommon in classics but usually less is used for flamencos. All these measurements must be right with each other to get the correct deflection of the neck (in my case about 1.5mm). If you use less doming you may have to use more deflection. Its what makes guitar making so fascinating and each maker's guitars so individual.



rodpacheco -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 9 2010 23:43:04)

hey Satvic, how are you?

I have used 3mm for the dome, taking into account that the lower brace had a 1.5 - 2mm "radius", on a flat neck with internal reinforcement. The action that I have gotten was pretty much what your striving for: 2.8mm at 12th fret, and 9.5 at bridge height. The Feel was great for me. Although I tapered the fretboard from 6mm at nut, to 5mm at 12th fret, and a little more from the 12th to the soundhole. I really liked that set up.

On the other hand, now I am trying to give the neck a 2 - 3mm relief (YOUR C's??), striving for a more geometrical fretboard and the ability to have more control over the final set up which ever it's decided. You can always reduce the relief of the neck at the solera by putting a shim when you glue the back to the neck, to let´s say take it from 3mm to 2 o 1.5mm etc. At the end, as they have mentioned, it´s experimenting with this that will develop the guitar you envision and the method you are most satisfied with.

The best of lucks,



rodpacheco -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 9 2010 23:49:29)

Quoting my grandma: "...everyone has their own Technic for killing fleas!" Go for it!!



satvic -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 3:28:16)

Thank you guys ! I do think those above specs were possibly for a classical...

1. So, based on the above review, can I assume these are safe to begin with for the 1st one?

2. Now it seems to me, the 3mm neck falloff (c) would lower the string height at the bridge ...

[ image removed ]



Jeff Highland -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 7:58:51)

the 3mm fallof for the neck is the wrong way round . the nut end of the neck should be forward of the body plane.



Escribano -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 9:43:20)

quote:

the 3mm fallof for the neck is the wrong way round . the nut end of the neck should be forward of the body plane.


The neck angle is away from the front of the soundboard. Here is how Anders does it with some shims. The soundboard is face down here.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



jshelton5040 -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 14:20:12)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

The neck angle is away from the front of the soundboard. Here is how Anders does it with some shims. Obviously, the soundboard is face down here. The heel and sides will hold the neck in this position.


Wrong...the neck angle (deflection) is exactly at Satvic diagrammed it. Anders is not setting the neck angle in the picture. You do that when you attach the back.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 14:30:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

1. So, based on the above review, can I assume these are safe to begin with for the 1st one?

2. Now it seems to me, the 3mm neck falloff (c) would lower the string height at the bridge ...


That's exactly what the neck deflection is for. When you put a straight edge on the top of the fingerboard it should line up about half way up the bridge height. Without the deflection the bridge would need to be too tall. It also has a profound effect on the playability of the guitar. You'll understand it better once you have built one.

I think you are taking the right approach but the 3mm neck deflection might be too much. Its safer to use less since you can always taper the fingerboard if you need more and it will look and work fine. Back tapering can be done if the neck is over deflected but that can look pretty ugly on the finished guitar.



Escribano -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 15:29:44)

quote:

Anders is not setting the neck angle in the picture. You do that when you attach the back.


Sorry I wasn't using the right words - I filmed Anders deflecting the neck backwards from the soundboard i.e. the opposite of that described by Jeff and therefore agreeing with Satvic. I'll get my coat [8|]



satvic -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 15:40:18)

good thing I checked with you guys first :) So, here are the revised specs for my 1st solera I'm ready to make. Please advise these specs are safe for me to arrive to 2.5mm "no buzz" action and 10mm string height at the bridge

[ image removed ]



jshelton5040 -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 15:53:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

good thing I checked with you guys first :) So, here are the revised specs for my 1st solera I'm ready to make. Please advise these specs are safe for me to arrive to 2.5mm "no buzz" action and 10mm string height at the bridge


This drawing is wrong. Your first drawing showing the neck swinging upward is correct. If you use 1.6 mm doming you should probably use about 2mm upward deflection in the neck. It never comes out the way its supposed to anyway so plan on doing some tapering of the fingerboard.



satvic -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 16:58:46)

Thank you Jon!!! corrected. I assume it's the final version and get to work? :)



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



r0bbie -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 20:05:13)

Hi,

If this last picture is correct then the bridge would need to be bigger then when there is no angle at all.

When this is the right way I can start over again... But I checked the drawings and to me it seems the nut end of the neck and the bottom of the dome are more or less at the same level, in this case the difference is 0.4 mm. So the angle is just the other way around.

Rob.



Jeff Highland -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 21:05:08)

The neck angle is still wrong the end should be lower than the front plane.
All the instructions for solera building I have ever come across say to plane down the neck end of the solera not build it up.
Escribano, it is having the solera this way that then allows anders to fine tune it with shims
Satvic, it makes it hard when you remove images, the comments made about them become impossible to make sense of



rodpacheco -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 21:42:27)

Satvic, check this out... read it slowly, and note that at the very end they mention Flamenco guitars.

What we´re trying to present to you is that, in order to reduce BUZZ, the neck would have to be tilted forward, as if you pushed it away from you, while holding the guitar in a playing position.

That's why the Solera would have to be tapered, from the 12th fret (which is ZERO), to the Nut (reducing or planing or sanding away 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3mm, etc. Whatever Set up you wish). The more forward the neck is tilted (NECK RELIEF), the LESS Buzz the guitar is likely to have, for now you have CLEARANCE.

If you were to tilt it BACK, you would get MORE Buzz, and the bridge would have to be super high (more that 12 or 13mm), as John Shelton commented.



http://www.hillguitar.com/website/news/articles/classical_guitar_setup.html


ANYWAY, read this carefully... Maaan, Pretty intense thread!! hahah



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 21:45:58)

I was just going to say what rod just pointed out.
The neck part of the solera has to be shaved DOWNwards.

btw in my earlier post when I said 20' radius I meant 25'



rodpacheco -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 21:52:50)

P.s. Only a little forward tilt is needed for flamenco guitars!!



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 21:59:40)

quote:

P.s. Only a little forward tilt is needed for flamenco guitars!!


I always wondered why people say this. I generally use a little more tilt on Flamencos than I do on classics because I want the string height at the bridge to be lower without radically tapering the fingerboard...



Jeff Highland -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 22:08:59)

Yeah Andy I built a flamenco and a classical earlier this year on the same solera with a 3mm neck slope on the solera. just shimmed as necessary
The flamenco used slightly more forward angle
But it does also depend on fretbord thickness, dome height etc.



rodpacheco -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 22:15:55)

Agree, though I mentioned this, so as to not confuse Satvic, when I said the more Tilt Forward, the Less Buzz, where HE could get the idea of giving if a much bigger Tilt, and ending up having to make his bridge TOO Low. And not achieving the set up he wishes, which is 2.5 at 12th, and 10 at bridge height.

Once again, There's many ways to proceed depending on the set up wanted, Action, Buzz, etc.

Saludos!



Escribano -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 22:28:14)

quote:

Escribano, it is having the solera this way that then allows anders to fine tune it with shims


OK, I think I get it [&:]



rodpacheco -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 22:35:09)

Tronco, you don't have to get your coat!! ahaha Saludos!



jshelton5040 -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 22:43:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

Thank you Jon!!! corrected. I assume it's the final version and get to work? :)



I'm sorry Satvic, I led you wrong, the other diagram is the correct one. Odd how you can build the damn thing but look at a diagram and see it wrong. Jeff Highland had it right. What I said about measurements and dimensions is still correct though.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Jeff Highland -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Sep. 13 2010 22:47:14)

Satvic, here is a simple way of working out the geometry you want

Draw a line 650 long and mark the midpoint.

This line is the plane of the front of the body at the rim edge (the original face of the solera)

The left end is the bridge, the midpoint the 12th fret and the right end the nut.

Now using an exagerated scale of 10mm to the mm we draw in another line above it representing the underside of the strings.

So at the bridge we come up 1.6mm (16mm) for the doming
plus 10mm (100mm) for you desired string height, so make a mark 116 above the line
Now at the midpoint come up 6mm (60mm)for the fretboard plus 1mm (10mm)for the fret plus 2.5mm(25mm) for your desired string height. Make a mark 95mm above the base line.

Now project these points down to the nut end.
You should be 74mm above the base line.
Working down from the stringline, take off 10mm for the fret thickness,60mm for fretboard thickness and you are left with 4mm which represents 0.4mm forward set on the neck

This is because you have a low dome 1.6mm, low flamenco action but a relatively high bridge string height of 10mm
Play around with this, putting in different numbers for the variable and you should get the idea of how it works

If you set up your solera with 3mm forward on the neck it is easy to shim it to a lesser abount to fine tune for your desired result.



El Burdo -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Jan. 30 2012 11:34:31)

Hi

Reading this, I find myself confused about whether you are all talking about guitars or soleras.
The neck on the guitar is angled upwards, forming an angle of say, 2 degrees less than 180 to the plane of the soundboard. This will happen naturally as well under the tension of the strings.
The solera therefore, because we build face down, will have to be angled downwards at the neck end. Adjustments will of necessity be made shaving the fingerboard and bridge saddle.
I hope that's right as I'm about to plane the solera like that!



Stephen Eden -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Jan. 30 2012 13:27:20)

yup this is correct in most cases. It does depend on the desired string height from the sound board really so its probably best to draw a picture of everything based on the string and your desired height from the soundboard. include your dome in this too



El Burdo -> RE: Solera specs ??? (Jan. 30 2012 13:37:27)

Right - and make any adjustments due to the natural bending up of the neck afterwards? I will do a drawing now.

Some time later.... I've also decided not to plane my solera, but cut it at the neck/body join and re-attach at the new angle. Easier and cleaner.



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