symmetrical fan braces?? (Full Version)

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yourwhathurts69 -> symmetrical fan braces?? (Sep. 8 2010 3:46:47)

are struts usually symmetrical on fan brace designs like santos, reyes, etc...?

i have seen a few guitar plans and the position of the struts are not always symmetrical (for example, on a 7 strut design, struts 1 and 7, 2 and 6, etc... are not in the exact same relative position). is this just a printing error, or are the struts really not symmetrical?

(i'm not concerned with the struts actually having the same thickness and width. i realize these dimensions are not always the same on the bass and treble side of the guitar).



Armando -> RE: symmetrical fan braces?? (Sep. 8 2010 17:30:32)

Hy yourwhathurts69

This is a common question asked by newbies. You may find more information about this in previous treads in this forum.

However i can tell you something about this issue.

Both kind of bracing patterns are existing, the symetrical and the asymetrical system.

Most luthiers swear for one or the other system and some of them are using both systems depending on the sound and tonal character they want to achieve in the particular instrument.

Most famous luthiers have changed their bracing pattern during their lifetime, not mainly from symetrical to asymetrical or vice versa, but rather developed their bracing layout within their favoured system.

This is valid also for the two Luthiers, Santos Hernandez and Manuel Reyes.

best regards

Armando



yourwhathurts69 -> RE: symmetrical fan braces?? (Sep. 8 2010 21:47:44)

hey, armando

thanks for the reply.

i think i need to clarify a little. i don't mean asymmetrical vs symmetrical design. i mean the symmetrical style designs (ie 1933 santos, etc...) aren't completely symmetrical in the plan. they look symmetrical to the eye, but if you use a ruler to to measure the exact position of the braces, you will see the bass and treble sides of the soundboard are slightly different.

i'm wondering if this is just a printing error, or if there really is a reason to position the struts in a slightly non-symmetrical position.

thanks.



jshelton5040 -> RE: symmetrical fan braces?? (Sep. 8 2010 23:44:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yourwhathurts69

i'm wondering if this is just a printing error, or if there really is a reason to position the struts in a slightly non-symmetrical position.


Maybe its a result of Santos knowing that the position of the struts is not critical so he just slapped them on in a general location [;)].



Armando -> RE: symmetrical fan braces?? (Sep. 9 2010 21:12:00)

quote:

i mean the symmetrical style designs (ie 1933 santos, etc...) aren't completely symmetrical in the plan. they look symmetrical to the eye, but if you use a ruler to to measure the exact position of the braces, you will see the bass and treble sides of the soundboard are slightly different.


o.k. got it.

Well that's hard to say. The bracing might and might not have been placed slightly assymetrical by purpose. In the case of Manuel Reyes we see that he uses a bracing pattern which is actually symetrical but the width and the height of the bracing differs slightly from one to the next, so that the pattern adds more stiffness to the the "treble" side of the soundboard. In this particular case it is quite obvious that the slight asymetry is not there by coincidence.

If the bracings are all of the same width and height i am with jshelton5040.

regards

Armando



RobJe -> RE: symmetrical fan braces?? (Sep. 10 2010 17:18:04)

quote:

In the case of Manuel Reyes we see that he uses a bracing pattern which is actually symetrical but the width and the height of the bracing differs slightly from one to the next, so that the pattern adds more stiffness to the the "treble" side of the soundboard. In this particular case it is quite obvious that the slight asymetry is not there by coincidence.


I know that the Blackshear Reyes plan has all these different dimensions but these came from the measurement of just one guitar. Is there any evidence (from other measurements or Reyes stated intentions) that this is deliberate and not just the result of a bit of post-build tweaking and/or believing that the measurements are not critical anyway?

Rob



jshelton5040 -> RE: symmetrical fan braces?? (Sep. 10 2010 17:46:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

I know that the Blackshear Reyes plan has all these different dimensions but these came from the measurement of just one guitar. Is there any evidence (from other measurements or Reyes stated intentions) that this is deliberate and not just the result of a bit of post-build tweaking and/or believing that the measurements are not critical anyway?


Do you think there's any chance that after bracing the top a master luthier like Reyes might have tapped on it and flexed it and decided that the braces needed to be altered? Individual luthiers don't build guitars like factories do. Each one is unique. We've tried many different bracing patters and still find ourselves changing patterns and dimensions to try to achieve a better guitar. The changes are getting very small compared to earlier experiments but are still happening and the guitars are still improving.

I admire people like Al Carruth for his efforts at trying to objectively study how the guitar works but even he admits that he's just nibbling at the edges of understanding it. In a lifetime one can build a few hundred guitars which is too small a number to really perform scientific analysis with controls. I for one would be rather unhappy if someone came along with the perfect formula for a guitar but I'm not too concerned about it happening.



Peter Tsiorba -> RE: symmetrical fan braces?? (Sep. 19 2010 18:16:01)

quote:


Well that's hard to say. The bracing might and might not have been placed slightly asymmetrical by purpose.
Armando


We do know that back then, only hide glue was used in the construction of a guitar. Here is my observation based on working with hide glue:

I don't think that such small asymmetries are intentional. When using hide glue, the brace is generally floated/rubbed slightly on the glue coated surfaces until the glue "grabs". Using fingers, one holds the brace in that location while some sort of clamping is arranged for.

However, the glue rarely grabs in the EXACT spot verifiable with a fine rule.

Another possibility could be that the braces were placed quickly and by eye (call it intuition, if you wish), which contributed "intentional asymmetry" to the brace arrangement. Let me make an analogy from the kitchen. I'm chopping onions with a knife, aiming for a more or less even thickness of cut. Now and then, I veer off a bit, and cut into a slightly thicker or thinner slice. Is that intentional? It does add some texture variation in the browned onion mix, and can be a good thing for certain applications? A group of technically minded people (in my absence) might come up with some incredibly nuanced and complex theories as to why the slight variation occurred. As for me, it was just a slip of the knife or the drift of the hand.



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