carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Full Version)

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satvic -> carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 3 2010 7:46:21)

howdy all... finally started building my own :)

I'm a huge fan of a thin flat neck. Since I don't have a piece of ebony and aiming for least possible weight can someone advise if using a rod(s) vs ebony is a good idea and what exact rods to use?

I'm building a slightly larger body with a 660-670 scale, 56mm at the nut, thinking I'll be using hard tension strings.

here are some rod options: need to know if I should use 1 or two rods and what size would be ideal for my configuration.

MacStew rods

Thanks so much !



jshelton5040 -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 3 2010 14:29:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

I'm a huge fan of a thin flat neck. Since I don't have a piece of ebony and aiming for least possible weight can someone advise if using a rod(s) vs ebony is a good idea and what exact rods to use?

I'm building a slightly larger body with a 660-670 scale, 56mm at the nut, thinking I'll be using hard tension strings.

here are some rod options: need to know if I should use 1 or two rods and what size would be ideal for my configuration.

Two of the 3/8" ones would add the most stiffness. They need to be installed upright and as close to the outside surface of the finished neck as possible. I have used them in the past on mahogany necks but never saw any need for them with Spanish Cedar. These graphite rods are not pleasant to work with. Cutting them will dull any saw and you can get splinters in your fingers that are really hard to see and painful to remove. You need to glue them with epoxy which is another good reason to avoid them. Laminating the neck out of Cedar is a good idea since it adds stability and allows the use of smaller planks just don't add something as heavy and unstable as ebony.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Sep. 3 2010 20:09:41)

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cathulu -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 4 2010 4:48:54)

Interesting, I know that Jeff Sigurdson used to use two graphite rods, but the neck was too stiff, you want a little bit of a bend in it under sting tension so that the strings do not excessively buzz with lower action (or for some reason like that, I can't remember the reason exactly), so he now uses only one.

My Raimundo 145 has an ebony reinforcement.

YMMV.

Reminds me of race motorcycles, they used to make the frames super stiff, but now they engineer a bit of flex into them as it is faster in the corners.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 4 2010 14:12:23)

You can put one or two 3/8" rods in the neck and cap it off with an ebony (or neckwood or whatever) strip that will show on the outside.
Like John says you have to put the CF as close to the outside as possible to get the benefit. In any kind of bar such as an I-beam or a guitar neck, the top and bottom do all the work and the inside doesn't contribute much but distance. So if you bury the rod in there it won't do much.
So you will have to split the neck blank in half, and glue all this stuff in the middle: rods, cap, and whatever other filler, could be neckwood strips with fiberglass cloth laminated inbetween. And position the rod angled in such a way that you won't carve into it when you carve the neck to final thickness.



jshelton5040 -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 4 2010 15:24:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf

John,
Do you use any kind of an insert for the neck? Is it really required?

We just use well cured Spanish Cedar. Nothing else is required. In my opinion laminating strips of hardwood like ebony into the neck does nothing but add weight. If there is a benefit it comes from releasing some of the tension in the neck wood when you saw it in half.



Stephen Eden -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 4 2010 20:51:31)

I use a piece of rosewood inserted into the neck so that is can only be seen when the nut is taken out. The insert itself is only 3mmx8mm But is that actual Gluing of it that adds the strength. laminated wood is stiffer than a olid piece the same thickness! has always worked for me :)



jshelton5040 -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 5 2010 14:14:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden
laminated wood is stiffer than a olid piece the same thickness! has always worked for me :)

Laminated necks are probably more stabile especially if you flip the two pieces end for end but unless the glue itself acts as a stiffener I don't see how they could be more stiff. I remain unconvinced that adding rosewood or ebony stips adds anything but weight.



Stephen Eden -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 7 2010 9:33:04)

Well to a cirtain extent its the same principle as pressing flat bars into a dish to creat a dome. The fact that the wood is glued to it, forces the wood to hold its shape better.



jshelton5040 -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 7 2010 13:59:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SEden

Well to a cirtain extent its the same principle as pressing flat bars into a dish to creat a dome. The fact that the wood is glued to it, forces the wood to hold its shape better.

Stephen, in the above example you're talking about resistance to shear forces which is in my opinion irrelevent to the function of the neck. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree[:D].



satvic -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 7 2010 16:00:35)

to recap: To avoid excessive buzz (i.e. Condes) it's good to leave let flex a bit, hence 1 rod insert recommendation. In fact, I want to avoid as much buzz as possible, similar to Jeff Sigurdson setup, about 2.5mm on 12 fret with virtually no buzz.

I'd like to avoid splitting the neck blank in 2, don't really have any rosewood or extra ebony for the insert, however, I can route a channel and fill it with epoxy per attached diagram. To the "outside" you guys mean as close to the back of the neck surface, right? Thanx for all the input!

P.S. this guitar will be traveling a lot all over :) I feel like i must reinforce the neck with carbon, not wood.



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jshelton5040 -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 7 2010 20:22:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: satvic

I'd like to avoid splitting the neck blank in 2, don't really have any rosewood or extra ebony for the insert, however, I can route a channel and fill it with epoxy per attached diagram. To the "outside" you guys mean as close to the back of the neck surface, right? Thanx for all the input!


Your diagram looks fine to me but why fill it with epoxy? Why not cut a strip of wood to fill the excess space then plane it off flush with the top surface of the neck? I've never liked the idea of filling spaces with glue. "Outside" could refer to the top of the neck (inlet into the back of the fingerboard) or back of the neck. It just needs to be close to the outside surface to be effective.



satvic -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 8 2010 0:27:48)

I was actually thinking the same thing. The insert doesn't have to be rosewood or ebony



Jeff Highland -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 8 2010 3:26:02)

Other than cheaply made instruments with poor quality or unseasoned wood, does anyone find that that they have problems with unreinforced necks bowing excessively in flamenco or classical guitars?



Andy Culpepper -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 8 2010 3:39:14)

quote:

Other than cheaply made instruments with poor quality or unseasoned wood, does anyone find that that they have problems with unreinforced necks bowing excessively in flamenco or classical guitars?


nope [:D]

Just out of curiosity satvic, how thin of a neck do you like? On a flamenco I usually build mine about 22 mm nut to 24.5 mm 9th fret. Pretty good compromise for most people and I haven't reinforced my Flamencos. Bear in mind also that your 56 mm nut is adding more neck/fingerboard (and weight) by a considerable amount. Ultimately the fingerboard is probably the most effective neck reinforcement there is. Ever think about just making that a bit thicker?



krichards -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 8 2010 7:55:55)

quote:

Other than cheaply made instruments with poor quality or unseasoned wood, does anyone find that that they have problems with unreinforced necks bowing excessively in flamenco or classical guitars?


No.
Like John Shelton says, if you use good quality cedar there doesn't seem to be a need for reinforcement.
But I guess anyone making a living from luthiery might take a belt and braces approach? Dealing with 'returns' must be a hassle and very costly, so reinforcement simply removes the possibilty of future problems.



satvic -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 8 2010 21:59:19)

I'll assume my wood is of good quality since it came in a kit. However, considering this guitar will traveling a lot and played outside in the North/South weather with humidy varying from 35-95%, I want to avoid any future problems as much as possible :)

I found Sigurdson guitars to be more comfortable to play than any other I've come across (which is not many), I'll be aiming for the same 22mm on the 9th fret.



a_arnold -> RE: carbon / graphite rods vs. ebony inert ? (Sep. 27 2010 2:19:09)

Salvador Castillo routs a groove in face of the neck for a single graphite rod and holds it in place with the glued fingerboard. His necks are rock solid, and the graphite is almost as light as the wood. Probably lighter than a dense mahogany, and definitely lighter than ebony. He sent me a pic of a neck before the fingerboard was put on.



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