Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Full Version)

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rombsix -> Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 19:55:13)

Trying to demonstrate playing a complex (meaning consisting of something OTHER than straight-forward strumming, or repetitive arpeggios) guitar line while singing simultaneously (at the same time). I am practicing doing this not just because I am trying to learn to sing, but rather because it is a useful brain exercise, just like trying to play bulerias while tapping one's foot like PdL in his Almoraima video when he was young (beats 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11) - which is what I plan to work on next.

Please comment about my vocals (which are still rather VERY modest, and limited in range), and my guitar playing, and how they both sound together.




Ron.M -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 20:11:30)

Hi Ramzi,

This was a common style in the early British Folk/Blues movement (in the 1960's).

Until then, folksingers here just strummed chords or played a simple finger-style arpeggio pattern.

(Actually, Paul Simon was just a young American folksinger travelling round Europe at the time, eventually hanging around the London folk clubs where he was introduced to this sorta stuff and was friends with the early guys like Jansch, Renbourn, Davy Graham...etc.)

This is a fairly minimalistic example of "moving" guitar over voice by John Martyn (His song was later covered by Clapton), but it could get quite complicated ...as in Bert Jansch's "Black Waterside" which even influenced Led Zepplin and others.





May sound pretty "ordinary and simple" these days, but believe me, this was a completely new way of playing guitar way back then, in the same way as some newcomers to Modern Flamenco find early Paco stuff pretty basic...(...so what's this big fuss over this Paco guy?... [:D])


cheers,

Ron



rombsix -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 20:22:29)

Thanks for the reply, Ron. What Martyn is doing I would say is still rather repetitive and thus easier for the brain to integrate with the singing. What Jansch is doing is more complicated, and thus probable to get one's brain in a bunch if coupled with singing. I still think though that the stuff I did is rather complicated, maybe more so than Jansch's stuff. I'm not sure though. Maybe I'm just happy I was able to actually sing and play without superbly screwing up one of the two. [:D]



Ron.M -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 20:41:14)

quote:

Maybe I'm just happy I was able to actually sing and play without superbly screwing up one of the two.


I know what you mean Ramzi...

Even to this day, I'm still amazed at Paul McCartney's bass playing which sometimes seems completely disassociated with his singing (to my ear anyway.)

cheers,

Ron



rombsix -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 21:15:11)

quote:

Paul McCartney's bass playing


I just had a listen to some of his bass stuff. Pretty amazing indeed. [:)]



marrow3 -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 21:16:16)

Hi Ramzi,

first congrats on some of your other videos with the tremelo i'm jealous.

I find with singing that with practice the your voice can open up, as can changing position with a capo. I not sure if it is relaxing or something else. Sometimes it helps to sing and play the same melody line simultaneously.

I was looking a Bert Jansch song the other day, Running From Home, with cross picking, harder than strumming, for what it's worth.

cheers,
Richard



rombsix -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 21:22:50)

Thanks, Richard! I still have a LONG way to go with regards to singing. I'm going to try to experiment, as you mentioned. Carefully, though, so as to avoid potential vocal injury.

Running From Home seems quite repetitive. Surely harder than straight strumming, though.

Ole! [:)]



marrow3 -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 21:36:24)

chord wise simple - in a sense the more of a challenge with cross picking an alternating bass, and the melody together in some parts. It was the lyrics that made me want to learn it.

I got a folder of pieces of which maybe only 1 in 10 clicked. Sometimes the simplest stuff is the hardest because there is no technique to 'hide' behind.

cheers,
Richard

P.s. I'm very much an amateur - just my opinion



Ron.M -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 21:49:52)

Hi Marrow,

One of my all time favourites is "Finches" from that first album.

(Of course "Strollin' down the Highway" is the very first song I ever heard him play and was immediately captured.)

One thing I noticed that the very best of the Folk/Blues players had that was ahead of the regular "Folkies" was not just an adventurous technical style of playing, but a really solid sense of timing and rhythm.

(Now where have I heard that before? [:-][:D])

Here's Jansch's version of Davy Graham's "Angie" off the same album for folk who haven't heard it.



cheers,

Ron



gj Michelob -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 21:51:59)

quote:

Even to this day, I'm still amazed at Paul McCartney's bass playing which sometimes seems completely disassociated with his singing (to my ear anyway.)

cheers,

Ron


‘ever heard Jimi Hendrix?

Or for complex acoustic finger picking James Taylor, the late Jim Croce and Doc Watson



Ron.M -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 22:10:14)

quote:

‘ever heard Jimi Hendrix?

Or for complex acoustic finger picking James Taylor, the late Jim Croce and Doc Watson


Of course gj...but does that make McCartney's bass playing and simultaneous singing less good...or Bert Jansch's guitar style less ground breaking?

There are quite a few Flamenco players these days who are at least as good (technically) as Paco de Lucia was in his 20's. (some 40 years ago..)

cheers,

Ron



gj Michelob -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 22:51:55)

quote:

Of course gj...but does that make McCartney's bass playing and simultaneous singing less good...


No it does not, you are right, Ron.
I guess I never really warmed up to Paul, and oppose any praises about him.

However, as it is the case for Sting or Lake (of Emerson Lake and Palmer) also McCarthney showed some dexterity singing and playing bass.

The same could be said about drummers/singers, as for Paul’s buddy Ringo Starr, or Genesis’ tambourine-man, Phil Collins. How the hell do they do that?

I enjoy a few songs which I accompany with a decently complex right and left hands' work. It takes me a while to coordinate the hands’ work with my singing, but eventually it unravels quite naturally. I suppose bass and drums players have similar experiences.

Sorry I doubted your former beatle boy [:(]



marrow3 -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 23 2010 23:29:14)

Hi Ron,

I've never listened to as much as I wanted. Davy Graham is a legend. That generation were as much about social comment and story telling, no?

Trying to compare different kinds of music to flamenco would only make my head implode.

Drummer/singer:
Robert "I still can't remember" Wyatt
[:D][:D]

cheers,
Richard



rombsix -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 24 2010 4:28:11)

quote:

‘ever heard Jimi Hendrix?

Or for complex acoustic finger picking James Taylor, the late Jim Croce and Doc Watson


I need to work on some of those. [8D]



Ron.M -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 24 2010 10:24:06)

quote:

I guess I never really warmed up to Paul, and oppose any praises about him.


gj,

I'm no McCartney fan...in fact the guy as a person sorta irritates me. [:D]
I haven't really liked anything much of his since he split with The Beatles.

But listening to some very early Beatles stuff from the early 60's I'm impressed at his melodic bass playing while not just singing the song, but singing HARMONY to Lennon. That takes quite a bit of simultaneous brain task separation.

I never really noticed it at the time, but that seems pretty sophisticated stuff to do in 1963 when pop music here was basically individual singers backed by a band or orchestra.

Also, I can play rasgueados etc...but I still find it awkward to do Lennon's rhythm guitar in this one! [:D]
(Yet Lennon is not known for being a guitar nerd)

You can see that they were always experimenting with rhythms and unusual chords and harmonies etc even then, when they were playing the teenybop stuff.

Try singing this song and playing Lennon's rhythm pattern just for fun!



cheers,

Ron



stratos13 -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 24 2010 14:07:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

There are quite a few Flamenco players these days who are at least as good (technically) as Paco de Lucia was in his 20's. (some 40 years ago..)




Yes! But where are they???[8|][8|][8|][8|][X(]



val -> [Deleted] (Jul. 24 2010 17:10:30)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 11:49:00



Ricardo -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 24 2010 19:07:55)

That is hard to do but in the end your timing is right on if you are coordinating it right. Sounds like you have the guitar part. What song is that???? Your singing is very pulled in or held in your throat. Why not sing OUT and open up, from your chest or diaphram? It might over power the dynamics of the guitar part, but with sound better anyway. Lowering the key might help you get it but you have no capo even, which means transposing or de tuning.

Ricardo



rombsix -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 24 2010 19:38:26)

Val: I'd like Fire and Rain, if you don't mind. [:D] You can find my email on my profile. [;)]

Ricardo: That's One Last Breath by Creed. My vocal range is still very narrow, and that's why I'm struggling with the song. I tried transposing it, and still got the same problems. I need a lot more practice to get things going. About my singing being held in my throat: I assume you're right. I noticed that too. I still don't know exactly how to "open up" and use my diaphragm. I'm reading about that and looking at some videos online. I don't think I can find enough time to take formal voice lessons, but I hope I can figure stuff out slowly with some good material (like books, and online resources). Thanks for the comments! [;)]



val -> [Deleted] (Jul. 24 2010 19:45:08)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 11:48:40



rombsix -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 24 2010 21:09:40)

quote:

Give me half an hour and it will be on its way


I PMed you, Val.



val -> [Deleted] (Jul. 24 2010 21:29:37)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 11:48:21



Mark2 -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 24 2010 21:45:22)

I didn't think I was a real fan either but recently my daughter bought me tickets for his current show. I had seen him in the 70's when he came to San Francisco and remembered it was one of the greatest concerts I'd ever seen, and I've seen a lot of great artists. He hasn't lost a step. Again, he delivered one of the most satisfying and memorable concerts I've ever been to. His skills are intact, and his renditions of the many Beatles tunes, as well as some of the post Beatles stuff, were on point. It is hard to go wrong with that singular catalog, but he went beyond simple re-creation (actually, re-creating "A Day in the Life" with a five piece live band isn't all that simple) and put out an incredible show filled with sheer musicianship, both from himself and his band members. One of the many highlights for me was "Blackbird", which he did solo. One guitar, one voice, one incredible song ringing out in a stadium filled with about 40,000 being taken away by his brilliance. Magic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

quote:

Of course gj...but does that make McCartney's bass playing and simultaneous singing less good...


No it does not, you are right, Ron.
I guess I never really warmed up to Paul, and oppose any praises about him.

However, as it is the case for Sting or Lake (of Emerson Lake and Palmer) also McCarthney showed some dexterity singing and playing bass.

The same could be said about drummers/singers, as for Paul’s buddy Ringo Starr, or Genesis’ tambourine-man, Phil Collins. How the hell do they do that?

I enjoy a few songs which I accompany with a decently complex right and left hands' work. It takes me a while to coordinate the hands’ work with my singing, but eventually it unravels quite naturally. I suppose bass and drums players have similar experiences.

Sorry I doubted your former beatle boy [:(]



gj Michelob -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 25 2010 0:34:49)

quote:

I didn't think I was a real fan either but recently my daughter bought me tickets for his current show. I had seen him in the 70's when he came to San Francisco and remembered it was one of the greatest concerts I'd ever seen, and I've seen a lot of great artists.


I hadn't warmed up to Paul yet, but boy am I strating to feel the "heat" [:)]

Thank you for reminding me of what a great musician there truly is behind the legend.



KMMI77 -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 25 2010 5:49:10)

Hey Rombsix,

Nice video, I have been trying to sing lately as well. I suck at it so i wont give you any advice[:D]



rombsix -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 25 2010 6:33:57)

quote:

I have been trying to sing lately as well


Post a video, mate. [;)]

Val: No folk guitar, unfortunately. I don't think I'll have it done in a couple of days, though. I'm starting a master's program in neuroscience tomorrow, and I have no clue how that is going to change my schedule...



KMMI77 -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 25 2010 7:33:27)

quote:

Post a video, mate.


Ok you asked for it.

Here is my attempt at singing something.

I'm not sure what this tune is supposed to be. I came up with the main arpeggio and then started recording and singing random ideas to see if i could find something interesting to do with it.

I had never sung before so i decided to give it a go, in english. The sound is a bit unclear and busy, with a lot of low frequencies and sounds. sorry about that.

I added text to the video so you can follow what i was trying to do. This tune is a bit "out there" but i had fun experimenting with it. I'm not sure if i failed with this one but sometimes you just have to try different things. [:D]

I felt the need to try something different and although the end result is not great, it gave me some ideas for future recordings.






rombsix -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 25 2010 8:31:13)

quote:

Here is my attempt at singing something.


Well, mate. I was hoping for something simpler, more raw. Just like you playing something on guitar and singing (dare I say, a pop song? [:-]). What you came up with is awesome, as usual. But it's not what I was hoping for, and not what I intend to be doing in the near future regarding singing. I plan to work on some of the relatively more complex songs (from genres like pop, soft rock, alternative, etc.) just to make my brain get the knack of multitasking.

Gracias for your prompt contribution! Reminded me of Vicente's stuff for some reason...



KMMI77 -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 25 2010 8:59:58)

quote:


Well, mate. I was hoping for something simpler, more raw. Just like you playing something on guitar and singing (dare I say, a pop song? ).


[:D] Maybe i will do it one day. There are a lot of pop/rock/funk etc..songs that i like.



Ron.M -> RE: Singing and playing guitar simultaneously (Jul. 25 2010 11:43:21)

Hey Ramzi,

Could you post yourself doing a cover version of "Jumhoriyet Albi", by Mohammed Iskandar? [:D]


cheers,

Ron



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