Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Full Version)

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gj Michelob -> Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 22 2010 22:22:04)

I exchanged emails with Rombsix regarding Copyright Infringement by performing a cover song on YouTube. I think it is important that all be aware of these general principles.

The publication of someone else’s copyrighted work, even if rearranged, even if gratuitous, requires permission.
There are licensing companies, like Rightflow, which secure the “mechanical license” required in order to release a cover song, with payment of the statutory 9.1 cents per CD containing the song, or per download. A more complex formula applies to streaming music, which could be the case of YouTube.

To be lawfully safe, when releasing a cover song, the mechanical license should be secured and licensing royalties paid accordingly. However, YouTube is not clear about offering a licensing service nor any calculation of such Royalties.

Some labels seem more aggressive in protecting their artists and their work on YouTube –as we have often encountered when sadly staring at a blank page after our favorite Nunez or Tomatitio’s videos hastily disappeared. However, regardless of any complaint it may receive, YouTube employs a variety of tools to red-flag such infringements and may strike down an infringing video before receiving any complaint.

I am now curious, and have sent an email to YouTube seeking clarification.

“Dear Sir or Madam, I am US legal counsel to ForoFlamenco, a well known, international internet forum devoted to flamenco guitar.

Members have posed the query on how a “cover song” may be properly licensed before or when posting the video of their performance on YouTube. While mechanical licenses can be secured and royalties paid easily for CD or downloads of cover songs, the same is not clear regarding YouTube streaming videos.

The question concerns the many home-videos presenting an artist’s rendition of a famous song, typically contemporary copyrighted work. As you know, YouTube hosts a vast library of videos by amateur and professional musicians performing copyrighted work with neither express nor mechanical license. However, certain videos seem to raise concern and are promptly removed while others survive YouTube’s scrutiny, irrespective of the quality of the performance and of any direct or indirect commercial exploitation –which on YouTube is quite unlikely a purpose.

Are there any Licensing requirements and is there a process available to artists (through YouTube or other related sources) to clear such licensing requirements –which are available for other forms of publications such as CD, Radio and the like; and finally,are there any exceptions to your infringement policy, such as a video presented as a tutorial for other musicians?

I look forward to and thank you for your kind cooperation and for the wonderful service you provide. All of us interested in music have learned immensely, and ironically, through those very cover-song videos, to which all students of music can so effortlessly and easily relate.

Best regards,
gj

Giacomo James Corrado, Esq.
CORRADO MONTGOMERY
267 Fifth Avenue, Suite 810
New York, New York 10016
Telephone: 212.838.0600
Mobile: 917.607.7974
gjc@CorradoMontgomery.com
www.CorradoMontgomery.com




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 22 2010 23:08:50)

quote:

The publication of someone else’s copyrighted work, even if rearranged, even if gratuitous, requires permission.
There are licensing companies, like Rightflow, which secure the “mechanical license” required in order to release a cover song, with payment of the statutory 9.1 cents per CD containing the song, or per download. A more complex formula applies to streaming music, which could be the case of YouTube.


If you post a vid you had better hope it doesn't hit one million views. Those pennies can really add up!

Interesting email GJ, can't wait to read their reply.




Florian -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 22 2010 23:29:04)

I dont have anything relating directly to the topic, i cant pretend to know how those things work.. but its funny...i was just talking about youtube..

One of my students is a lawyer and she worked in New York last few years...she was one of the team of lawyers defending Youtube...when Google ? (i dont remember exactly who ) wanted to sue them for a billion dollars..


youtube won

shes my lawyer now [;)]...i am just waiting for an oportunity to use her




gj Michelob -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 1:13:18)

quote:

If you post a vid you had better hope it doesn't hit one million views. Those pennies can really add up!

Interesting email GJ, can't wait to read their reply.


Well for streaming videos, and only when the user has “interactive control” meaning the ability to select the song and listen to it (unlike say a Pandora radio-like pre-selected collection playing in a determined sequence), the computation of royalties takes into consideration a variety of factors, including the number of viewers and the revenues of the host. However, yes, the numbers may add up quite unfavorably.

Are you an attorney as well Pgh? We need more power to tackle this issue…

Florian, maybe your student has some connections at YouTube (now Google)'s the legal department which she could share.




KMMI77 -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 5:00:23)

This is an interesting topic.

I recently received an email from you tube saying that i was an eligible candidate for the you tube partner program. There must be some kind of bot that generates these emails. A popular channel had added me into their other channels box which gave me about 100 subscribers in 2 weeks. I think that is the reason the bot was activated sending me the email.

It then asked me to set up a google adSence account in order to proceed to the second stage. The third step involves watching some videos about copyright etc.. Then my channel would be reviewed by someone to determine its suitability. I did not bother doing this as my channel does not receive many views.

Anyway, I began looking into copyright and the you tube partner program by watching videos on the subject and reading some forums. It really seems to be a grey area with lots of unclear boundaries and contradictions. It will be interesting to see if you tube gets back to you.

Can you imagine how many flamenco videos would have to be removed if copyright was strictly adhered to? [:D] All those singers singers singing old letras. Guitarists copying falsetas. There would be hardly any left.[:D]

Actually, Isn't Flamenco based on copyright infringement ?




Florian -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 5:25:11)

quote:

Florian, maybe your student has some connections at YouTube (now Google)'s the legal department which she could share


haha that reminds me of my mom a litlle...she's in the old country mentality...still takes chocolate to the dentist, lawyer and doctor...thinks it will get her special treatement ...funnyest thing is seeing the dentist standing there, with surgical gloves on and the mask over his mouth looking puzzled and slightly uncomfortabile lol


il ask Despina but i doubt we would get any special treatement (if that is what you are thinking)...then again what the hell do i know...my mom does have better teeth then me



[:D]




gj Michelob -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 14:08:29)

quote:

I am now curious, and have sent an email to YouTube seeking clarification.

“Dear Sir or Madam, I am US legal counsel to ForoFlamenco, a well known, international internet forum devoted to flamenco guitar.

Members have posed the query on how a “cover song” may be properly licensed before or when posting the video of their performance on YouTube. While mechanical licenses can be secured and royalties paid easily for CD or downloads of cover songs, the same is not clear regarding YouTube streaming videos.

The question concerns the many home-videos presenting an artist’s rendition of a famous song, typically contemporary copyrighted work. As you know, YouTube hosts a vast library of videos by amateur and professional musicians performing copyrighted work with neither express nor mechanical license. However, certain videos seem to raise concern and are promptly removed while others survive YouTube’s scrutiny, irrespective of the quality of the performance and of any direct or indirect commercial exploitation –which on YouTube is quite unlikely a purpose.

Are there any Licensing requirements and is there a process available to artists (through YouTube or other related sources) to clear such licensing requirements –which are available for other forms of publications such as CD, Radio and the like; and finally,are there any exceptions to your infringement policy, such as a video presented as a tutorial for other musicians?

I look forward to and thank you for your kind cooperation and for the wonderful service you provide. All of us interested in music have learned immensely, and ironically, through those very cover-song videos, to which all students of music can so effortlessly and easily relate.

Best regards,
gj


My stubbornly relentless search was punished by a bureaucratic labyrinth of meaningless automated replies and disorienting digital voices. Eventually, a human voice, although distant and unconcerned, seemed warm as “it” dictated the email address of Google-YouTube’s legal department. However, the answer to my courteous letter is nothing more than a frigid, distracted direction leading back and away into a tangled warren of burrows and tunnels.

But this is only the beginning. YouTube could technically remove all videos form the Tomatito competition, or of any musician illustrating “how-to” play Paco de Lucia or Vicente Amigo, leave alone “sweet home Alabama”.

The doctrine of “fair use” produced an assortment of reasonable exceptions to the copyright infringement statute, which the US courts have keenly protected and further developed, particularly when the alleged wrong consisted in “reproducing” protected work to enhance public knowledge: educational purposes. Yet, this case-law does not wrestle with the new digital universe presenting a quantity and speed of reproducing copyrighted work which was unknown to learned justices, the Internet and YouTube.

Here is Google-YouTube's response:

“Thanks for your inquiry. We're glad you take copyright laws seriously - YouTube does too. In general, you must be certain that your video does not infringe someone else's copyright before you upload it to our site. We cannot make this determination for you, it's your responsibility to know the rules, but we suggest you refer to our Copyright Tips at http://www.youtube.com/t/howto_copyright, where we've provided some guidelines and links to help you determine whether your video infringes someone else's copyright.

You may also visit YouTube’s Copyright School, a self-paced guide to copyright terms and tools, found here:
http://www.google.com/support/youtube/bin/static.py?page=guide.cs&guide=25903

Sincerely,

Google Legal Support”




rombsix -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 14:49:11)

Back to square 1, I guess...




Escribano -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 14:51:07)

quote:

We cannot make this determination for you


But they do and will either play an ad with it if they have a deal with the publisher (mostly for original recordings which they can recognise automatically) or they will take it down. So they are making a determination for you.




Ron.M -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 14:54:39)

quote:

it's your responsibility to know the rules


This is typical "passing the buck". [:D]

You were asking.."What are the Rules?"

The answer is..."It's up to you to know them."[:D]

(Could have been straight out of Alice in Wonderland)

cheers,

Ron




gj Michelob -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 15:24:23)

We know the rules, it is the exception we are interesting in understanding, and the apparently odd fashion it is administered by Google-YouTube.

As far as our privileged music niche, Flamenco, is concerned, infringement does not seem to be such an overwhelming threat. Incorporating, rearranging and even fully reproducing traditional falsteas is not only tolerated but required.
While formal videos of flamenco performances are often removed by YouTube, there seems to be very little interest in challenging home-videos presenting one’s rendition of Tomatito or Vicente’s work.

The most aggressive industry really is “pop music”, for it obviously generates enormous revenues and needs to protect every penny.

I am not done with YouTube, yet.

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act relieves service providers (such as YouTube is) not only of liability but above all of any preoccupation regarding infringement on their sites, thus preempting any need to lobby for more and wider exceptions.
In general, the DMCA limits Internet service providers from copyright infringement liability for simply transmitting information over the Internet. Service providers, however, are expected to remove material from users' web sites that appears to constitute copyright infringement. YouTube has a standard “notification” policy, requiring infringement-complainants to give notice to YouTube of any alleged infringement. YouTube will simply remove the offending flagged Video.
The question really is, what interest might YouTube have in salvaging those home-videos?

I have contacted an authority in the area of “mechanical licenses”, Scott Sellwood (General Counsel at Rightflow) to see how such licenses could apply to YouTube.

Strictly and rigorously viewed, YouTube’s site is replete with offending infringements; however, those infringing videos represent a very important component of its success. There must be an interest in that robotic legal department to balance the conflicting interests and sort this out. I hope to find someone sufficiently ambitious to embrace a ground breaking project, such as this is.




rombsix -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 16:41:18)

quote:

I hope to find someone sufficiently ambitious to embrace a ground breaking project, such as this is.


Let me know when you do. [;)]




KMMI77 -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 16:48:08)

quote:


My stubbornly relentless search was punished by a bureaucratic labyrinth of meaningless automated replies and disorienting digital voices.


[:D][:D]




Ricardo -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 17:46:56)

Not sure what the big deal is. I was warned about this stuff 15 YEARS ago in my Legal aspects of music business class. Internet, fair use, etc etc... the normal laws no longer apply and new field, wide open for debate and investigation, has just waiting for these issues for years.

I think it is clear they don't want to deal with licensing. If YOUR video gets flagged (only reason why is cuz someone doesn't like YOU or a robot is after something YOU are loading), so it is quite simple if you either OWN it or have license to use it, you just TELL them, and you can keep it up. What is so difficult about understanding that? All the bad videos up that you are curious about, why not just flag them if you are so bothered by it? The videos will be removed as we all know NOBODY has a license anymore. Most people dont even has paper that says they own copyright of their OWN songs anymore. Why? cuz as of a decade ago you don't even need it to be a copyright owner. It only helps to have such paper work or proof of date when it goes to court....which will NEVER happen unless someone both hits the big time AND there is also someone jeleous about it.

And further more, the laws I am talking about and seem to be discussed here, only apply to USA. Youtube is super international. Try do get a mechanical license here in usa for a song from spain. Good luck.

Ricardo




gj Michelob -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 20:04:24)

quote:

What is so difficult about understanding that? All the bad videos up that you are curious about, why not just flag them if you are so bothered by it? The videos will be removed as we all know NOBODY has a license anymore.


Dear Ricardo, I am afraid you misread and misunderstood this thread and my posts.

I am trying to find a way to rescue the many home-videos -including yours- from any unreasonably sweeping action by YouTube generally based on infringement of copyrighted work.

I am probably wasting my time...

After all, bad as it may be, I exclusively play my own work.




val -> [Deleted] (Jul. 23 2010 20:14:27)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 11:49:35




Escribano -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 21:30:40)

quote:

"blocked in some countries",


Yeah, that too.




Ricardo -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 23:35:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob

quote:

What is so difficult about understanding that? All the bad videos up that you are curious about, why not just flag them if you are so bothered by it? The videos will be removed as we all know NOBODY has a license anymore.


Dear Ricardo, I am afraid you misread and misunderstood this thread and my posts.

I am trying to find a way to rescue the many home-videos -including yours- from any unreasonably sweeping action by YouTube generally based on infringement of copyrighted work.

I am probably wasting my time...

After all, bad as it may be, I exclusively play my own work.


OK ok, I saw the pink floyd thread and responded. I feel flamenco and pink floyd are different animals anyway, but still my adverising points I made in the pink floyd thread stand. Youtube is letting copyright infringers that get lots of hits, ADVERTISE for free in exchange for keeping the vid up. There is big money in advertising so you can understand why they need to play the infringement card on small time guys like us here on the foro and in youtube world. They are using "lawbreakers" so they dont' have to pay tons of $ to make pro vids.

Of course if we played it RIGHT we would get permission and licenses and charge big bucks to let them put ads up....


Ricardo




gj Michelob -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 23 2010 23:59:04)

quote:

Of course if we played it RIGHT we would get permission and licenses and charge big bucks to let them put ads up....


Ricardo


Thank you Ricardo; Let me keep it really simple:

I believe that most of these home-made videos should fall within the “education” exception to infringement and be permitted to stand.

Also, I believe that when the “educational” purpose cannot be invoked, these videos should be deemed as having such a “de minimis” impact as to inevitably finish the famous aphorism…”lex non curat”.

Although unrelated to my little crusade, I do not disagree with your views on the theory you described. YouTube needs to make money somehow, and its distracted benevolence occasionally punctuated by removing a video or two, is part of a more focused scheme than it meets the eye.

Ciao,

PS: Any new Ricardo’s music we might soon watch you perform on YouTube?




kozz -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 24 2010 2:48:57)

http://www.youtube.com/user/tedtalksdirector?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/26/UoX-YihV_ew

Margaret Stewart: How YouTube thinks about copyright




Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 24 2010 3:55:50)

Hi GJ, I’m not an attorney. What you are doing is laudable, but I doubt any of the organizations involved will cooperate. You’re dealing with a number of different intermediaries—the RIAA and Ytube. IIRC the RIAA promotes the interests of the recording industry, but doesn’t own any music. The RIAA probably won’t do anything to help for fear of setting a precedent unfavorable to their interests. It’s doubtful that Ytube will help in any way--or even offer a written statement beyond the generic policy they have already published. Let’s face it; Ytube is exploiting the current grey area created by the DMCA for profit. I can’t imagine them ever asking the RIAA for a waiver for educational purposes for our site and wouldn’t be surprised if the RIAA despises Ytube.

The best work around that I can think of would be to find a state owned college or university that publishes online versions of books and other media. A librarian at such a university told me that many well known schools wanted to put every book they had in their inventory online but since they were privately owned they could be sued. To sue a state owned school the state has to give its permission—which they won’t do for copywrite infringement. If Foro Flamenco was a non-profit entity dedicated to offering free instruction for those interested in flamenco you might be able to convince one of these state owned schools to host our video files on their server.

We could also encourage people like Romb, who want to publish videos of their own performances, to learn songs that no longer have a copywrite.




rombsix -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 24 2010 6:41:45)

quote:

We could also encourage people like Romb, who want to publish videos of their own performances, to learn songs that no longer have a copywrite.


I guess that would work. However, how many popular songs out there no longer have copyrights?




Florian -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 24 2010 10:51:50)

or we could just do nothing [:)]...do the same thing we been doing till now...its worked...they take one down...do another next month [;)]...for every 1 that comes down 1000000 stay up..thing is that if we force them to play 100% by their own rules or even ask them to look closer at them, or be fair .....if they start searching and getting serious about copyrights and enforcing them 100% there wont be much left for any of us...and we all lose...including rombsix who will lose again...so if winning or beeing right amounts to less then losing...then why fight it or pursue it

there is a wise old romanian saying " Roata la Roata merge" which dosent really apply here or even have anything to do with this story but dont change a gift horse if it aint broken [:D]

and gj Michelob I know that you are just politely and rightfully so trying to understand and learn the rules and i know that you know more about this kind of stuff.. but obviously they are going to be designed around what yotube wants to do...and abviously they are aware that if they were to enforce copyrights 100% they will go out of bussines...so the rules are going to be confusing and going in circles and not black and white..85% of the stuff on youtube is braking some kind of copyright law




rombsix -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 24 2010 11:37:26)

You're hilarious, Florian! [:D]

I had received several notifications in the past month about videos where it would say that the audio or something else in the video was owned by some company, but that no action is required on my part (and that maybe the video will no longer be viewable in certain parts of the world). However, the reason I took my videos down is because this time, the notification I received was more of a threat, and despite me being in Lebanon (where it is probably harder to reach and sue me for copyright infringement), I decided to indulge. I was told that my account would be shut down, and that my IP address would be banned and disallowed from creating a new account on YouTube, or even accessing the website's important features. They also threatened with taking legal action against me.

This is why, I just said, "Why bother?" Might as well take the pop videos down, focus on flamenco, and spend most of my time studying / working (which probably would get me somewhere in life more than making video covers of pop songs for people to learn how to play the chords to accompany said songs).

[:)]




hamia -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 24 2010 12:47:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

there is a wise old romanian saying " Roata la Roata merge" which dosent really apply here or even have anything to do with this story but dont change a gift horse if it aint broken [:D]



Curiosity got the better of me so I googled this (if only to find out what "merge" meant)

What goes around comes around?

Which is non-specific enough to be applicable to just about anything!




Ricardo -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 24 2010 21:47:27)

quote:

PS: Any new Ricardo’s music we might soon watch you perform on YouTube?


Yeah I have some stuff, but when I get a chance to record it. I am still not at home, and daytimes are really busy with the kids these days.

Ricardo




gj Michelob -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 25 2010 0:22:08)

quote:

really busy with the kids these days.


Oh please upload something, I am listening to old stuff and need something new to (re)ignite my fading love for Flamenco... do not worry, we are used to see your your kids running in the background [;)]





Florian -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Jul. 25 2010 6:47:09)

Oh I am sorry Ramzi i didnt realize it got that serious...i thought it was just that they deleted a video or two...apologies for downplaying it

quote:

Curiosity got the better of me so I googled this (if only to find out what "merge" meant)

What goes around comes around?

Which is non-specific enough to be applicable to just about anything!



heh acctualy i couldnt even think of a romanian saying so i just scribled any random words in romanian thinking noone would understand anyway

exact translation would be "the wheel goes to the wheel" dosent mean anything lol




Adam -> RE: Regarding YouTube, Cover Songs and Infringement. (Aug. 2 2010 23:05:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

You're hilarious, Florian! [:D]

I had received several notifications in the past month about videos where it would say that the audio or something else in the video was owned by some company, but that no action is required on my part (and that maybe the video will no longer be viewable in certain parts of the world). However, the reason I took my videos down is because this time, the notification I received was more of a threat, and despite me being in Lebanon (where it is probably harder to reach and sue me for copyright infringement), I decided to indulge. I was told that my account would be shut down, and that my IP address would be banned and disallowed from creating a new account on YouTube, or even accessing the website's important features. They also threatened with taking legal action against me.

This is why, I just said, "Why bother?" Might as well take the pop videos down, focus on flamenco, and spend most of my time studying / working (which probably would get me somewhere in life more than making video covers of pop songs for people to learn how to play the chords to accompany said songs).

[:)]


[:@][:@] Now how am I supposed to learn how to accompany Amr Diab songs?




M.S.A. -> [Deleted] (Aug. 2 2010 23:53:45)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 1 2011 0:18:13




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