Buying Guitar from Spain (Full Version)

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abraham -> Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 4:33:51)

Hi all,

I'm thinking about buying a Guitar from Spain. Nothing fancy. Something around $4000.

Which town or city would you recommend considering the prices and selection of Guitars available?

I've a few times tried Guitars (from famous luthiers) played by professional guitarists and every time was amazed what a cheap Guitar they are using :) but those Guitars sounded very well in the hands of their owners.

So I need to try lots of Guitars before buying.

Thanks, Abraham



Guest -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 7:49:49)

Hi Abraham

The two major cities for guitarbuilding in Spain are: Madrid and Granada, and you should visit both. The problem is that both cities, and Spain in general, are famous for their huge amount of builders and their lack of guitars. Most builders builders have waiting lists, and you have to order and wait x or xx month.

So this idea, that many players have, of comming to Spain, trying out a lot of guitars and return home with THE guitar, is an ilusion, especially when it comes to flamenco guitars. In order to get the most for the money, the best thing will be to contact some builders, explain what you are looking for and make an order. 4000$ is still alot of money especially in Granada and even taking the dollar/euro relation into consideration. For less, you can find a wonderfull guitar, and for more you can end up with a dead box with strings.

So what are you looking for?

Saludos
Anders

http://perso.wanadoo.es/eliasson/anders.htm



abraham -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 15:28:47)

quote:

explain what you are looking for and make an order.


I don't know how to explain. Which properties does a guitar maker need to know in order to build the kind of guitar that I would like?

I don't like a guitar which produces buz sound, no matter how strong/loud I play it but at the same time the distance between strings and neck is as short as possible.



PacoPaella -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 15:36:08)

Do you want a bright, agressive sound (=>Blanca) or a greater volume with more sustain (=>negra)? Do you want your guitar to have a large measure (up to 66,7 cm a lá Conde) or rather a small / standard one (Granada style, 65 cm)? Wide at the nut or small (51-55mm)? You want pegs or mechanic? And how do you want it to look? Nitro laque, french polish? How do you want the rosette?

Lots of parameters. And even then you still dont know if you'll like the result...good luck [:D]



Flamingo -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 15:43:27)

Anders,
I also found that the difficult choice of Negra or Blanca. Some Blanca has more profounding bass than Negra. Some Blanca has very good sustained treble.
So why Negra ? This alone, is hard to explain to luthier of what we want.



abraham -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 16:09:41)

quote:

Lots of parameters. And even then you still dont know if you'll like the result

That's exactly what I was thinking about. How can I buy a guitar which hasn't been even built? :)

My impression is that the luthier can't know the result when starting to make a guitar and I can impossibly know how it will feel in my hands.

The sizes are not that important to me, 65 or 66.7 cm, I can live with either. The most important things are that I'm comfortable on it and can bring the kind of sound I like out of it.



abraham -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 16:49:00)

quote:

So why Negra ? This alone, is hard to explain to luthier of what we want.


True, I couldn't care less what material the luthier uses. Only the end result counts.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 19:20:42)

Abraham,
the first part was wrong--good luthiers DO know what is going to come out. That's why they are good.

As for the second part, that's true, most people don't really know what they want. Best thing is to try as many guitars out to find out. Do you have some friends that have great guitars, have you ever played a great guitar? That's a starting point. But I went to Spain last summer and it sure wasnt' a fantasyland of getting to try out great guitars. I didn't find anything.

If you go to Madrid, try to visit Cuenca, home of luthier Vicente Carillo. He sells negras for about $3000, blancas for $2500. I have a blanca and I like it very much.



abraham -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 20:04:15)

quote:

the first part was wrong--good luthiers DO know what is going to come out. That's why they are good.


Then why would they build guitars in different price range? If they knew the result, wouldn't they always build the best model which not surprisingly is the most expensive one?

However I agree that good luthiers have a better idea of the end result. They for instance know that the result will cost between $1000-6000.



abraham -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 20:22:03)

In addition I recall a story I heard about a famous luthier who built instruments for a whole year. Then in the end of the year he invited famous players to his home and asked them to categorize the instruments into three grades. He then stamped the very best instruments grade one. The second group got grade two stamp and so on.

Finally he burnt the rest of instruments which didn't fit in any of the groups and accounted for 50% of the instruments.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 20:25:53)

Abe,
are you under the impression that good luthiers make a bunch of guitars and then price them according to how they "turned out"? That's grossly incorrect, if that is what you are implying. Guitars priced like everything else is--supply and demand, opportunity cost--market forces. Santa Fe luthier Keith Vizcarra charges $7000 for his guitars. Does that mean they are 3X as good as my Vicente Carillo guitar--probably not (although the one I tried was by far the best guitar I ever played). The luthier knows which guitars are going to be his top-of-the-line lines and which are going to be student or intermediate long before they come out of the shop, to be sure.

I would assume that you have experience buying guitars off the shelf, but little to no exposure to "known" luthiers. The reason people are willing to buy guitars that cost $7000 is due to the skill of the luthier. He is a skilled craftsman with a strong idea of what his guitar should sound like. Just like before a guitarist steps on stage he knows whether or not he knows how to play the guitar... He uses this skill to create an instrument which matches his concept. You can see that this is a different way of working than a factory situation, where the workers are merely assembling an instrument according to templates or plans, without the skill or authorization to tweak it according to the nature of the materials.

I know a lot of people who don't know anything about fine luthiers, how they work, and what their value is based on. Not that I'm an expert--I've only built one guitar--but I have been exposed to this field. You would be a lot better off buying a guitar--custom, you never having played it--from a fine luthier such as Brune, Sigurdson, or our Aaron Green than going to Spain for the priviledge of getting to try out their "duds." Ask around a little bit, Abe, I think you'll find a lot of people saying the same thing.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 24 2004 20:26:59)

[Deleted by Admins]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 24 2004 21:02:28)

And you believed that story, Abe?

Good luck, and don't buy a Conde. :)



Guest -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 25 2004 8:07:59)

Hi again. You guys had a good long discussion while I was happily asleep.

First. I totally understand that people have worries about ordering a guitar from a luthier. A person they dont know and might even be that they've never tried one of his/hers instrument. In a perfect world, you would easily have the oportunity to play and try everyones instrument. But this world is not perfect, and Miguel de Marias story about travelling Spain and not finding anything special, is a story I've heard so many times. I try to have a good guitar at home, but if someone offers me the money I want for it, it's sold!
Reality is that if you want a good guitar, you have 2 posibilitys: to buy second hand from someone you trust. Jim Opfer had an A26 Conde for sale for 2500£ a few weeks ago. Thats a safe investment. If you dont like it, sell it, you wont loose money on an instrument like that. The other posibility is to order an instrument from a builder. Have a look around, send some E-mails and if possible make a phone call, and see what you get in return. Might be that you find that it's to weird and that you dont feel secure. This, I and other builders totally understand and respect. When someone gets in contact me me, we talk and send some mails. I try to explain how my guitars sound and the difference between the models, I might send you a soundclip, and some pictures. etc.

And please, the builders know quite well what they are doing. We are talking about tenth of milimeters in order to make a soundboard work well etc.
Prices are another thing. Name is the biggest variable. Wellknown builders are safer investments, but also a lot more expensive. Another variable is wood. There are huge differences in quality and looks. And looks cost a lot.
When it comes to models and their price difference, its just like with anything else. You look for different buyers, just like Volkswagen. In a standard Golf, you wont find the luxury seats of the highest level Passat and the engine will be smaller. It's all about needs.

I hope that this makes some kind of sence. Guitarbuilding is not a mystical profession, the only thing is that its difficult with words to explain something like sound.

Saludos
Anders



Guest -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 25 2004 8:17:16)

One thing more:

Abraham wrote:

"I don't like a guitar which produces buz sound, no matter how strong/loud I play it but at the same time the distance between strings and neck is as short as possible."

What you say is what we all want and what at the same time is a contradiction.

Now you are talking about a thing which is very personal. Some people buzz a lot more than other, never mind the power with which they play. It has something to do with your right hand position, where the very flat, very anti classical position produces less buzz, because you play more parallel with the soundboard. I've heard bad players capable of making whatever thing with strings buzz.
At the same time some people (like me) actually want their guitar to buzz a little bit. The solution is to make two saddles, a normal (slight buzz) and a higher one, and then the player can choose and adjust the guitar the way he/she likes.

Well, merry christmas
Anders



abraham -> RE: Buying Guitar from Spain (Dec. 25 2004 10:54:45)

quote:

You guys had a good long discussion while I was happily asleep.


Just at what time do you sleep? specially when it's xmas eve. :)
and thanks for the tips.



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