weird but wonderful (Full Version)

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Jim Opfer -> weird but wonderful (Jul. 3 2010 10:58:02)

I found this on YouTube. The guitarist is left handed but he's playing a right hand strung guitar. Everyting is back to front, upside down etc...etc.
Plays picado and chords the opposite way. How does his brain work?



rombsix -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 3 2010 11:28:39)

Hey Jim! It's been a long time!

It's not very weird, actually. I've seen several Gipsy Kings members do that... [;)]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 3 2010 17:26:28)

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Doitsujin -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 3 2010 17:43:19)

interesting

The question is.. is it really beneficial or not.

The second question that comes into my mind is: Is he awesome coz he can play left handed and maybe lefthanded on a guitar that is stringed for right handed playing, too, or is he just a moron who made a long term fault? :-|



XXX -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 3 2010 18:17:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito
Too much time on his hands.[8|]


I remember this vid and somebody saying that he probably didnt have a guitar to practice with. Or maybe he doesnt even know that its better to switch strings.
He is awesome because he has practiced and can play. Some things are impossible though like arpeggios with bass string+trebles because he would have to reach out with the ring finger or little finger to play the bass string which is much harder to play than with the thumb of course.



Ron.M -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 3 2010 18:55:07)

quote:

or is he just a moron who made a long term fault?


The other really moronic thing is that he probably knows and can use Bulerias compás better than 95% of folk on this Forum! [:D][:D]

He's not even studying this stuff... just hangin' round the streets having a bit of fun with his pals.

(I bet he can probably even do a bit of singing and dancing to boot!)

And he's what..17...18?

cheers,

Ron



ToddK -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 3 2010 21:46:34)

quote:

or is he just a moron who made a long term fault? :-|


Or are you just mad because his compas/rhythm playing is better than yours?

I dont know about arpeggios, but his rhythm is absolutely stellar.
Better than most here on the forum, myself included.
And he looks like he's only 15 or 16..

TK



yourwhathurts69 -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 3 2010 23:58:34)

if i were a lefty, i would try to learn on a right handed guitar. most people play right handed, so where ever you go (fiestas, guitar store, etc.) you could still play. plus, you may develop a unique sound that sets you apart from all the other guitarist. didn't jimmy hendrix start out by flipping a righty guitar?



XXX -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 8:01:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yourwhathurts69

if i were a lefty, i would try to learn on a right handed guitar.


I am a lefty, and trust me, if you were going to play guitar seriously, and you are really "feeling lefty", you would play a left stringed guitar.
If any lefty players want to try a right stringed guitar, i can recommend to start with "for elise" as a practice piece [8D]



orsonw -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 10:39:20)

I really enjoyed his playing, well the three of them together.

quote:

He's not even studying this stuff...

Don't get too romantic Ron, he didn't play like that by chance- he practised too!


I think maybe these guys learn alot by playing together like this or in late night Juergas playing bulerias or tangos that last forty minutes at a time. I know when I have played in a Juerga, I think this must be the best way to learn but living in London that opportunity doesn't come often. Instead I'll have to be a nerd on an internet forum.



Doitsujin -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 11:03:16)

quote:

Or are you just mad because his compas/rhythm playing is better than yours?


I´m not jealous. I can do it as tight as him.


When being pupil, having nothing to do than hanging out with pals playing guitar or doing whatever... you can easily reach great skills in any discipline. His compas is pretty nice but its absolutely nothing special in respect to the circumstances hes living in.



Ron.M -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 11:45:27)

quote:

Don't get too romantic Ron, he didn't play like that by chance- he practised too!


I don't think I'm being romantic, Orson.....just realistic.

From the age of about 2 till 8 you are absorbing stuff like a sponge without really trying.
That's how kids learn fluent language so quickly (sometimes 2 languages if they have parents who come from different countries) and speak with a perfect local accent.

The guy's guitar is beat up, out of tune, he's playing it the wrong way round.....he even screws up a chord, his thumb is sticking up over the neck, his playing is heavy and clunky with no sophisticated technique.....and it still sounds GROOVY! [:D]

All of these guys have just picked up the rhythm and just instictively know the phrasing and sound of Bulerias from just hearing it all around them for so long.

I doubt if they would be able to "count it out".

They all just "know" how it goes. It's no big deal.

If any of these guys wanted to learn to play advanced Flamenco guitar seriously and take lessons and practise, they would have an incredible start since they would just be concentrating on technique. The rest they already know.

I bet there are only a very few of the good guitarists here who wouldn't feel a bit sick and intimidated by having that guitar passed to them and asked to play some Bulerias for that bunch! [:D]

These guys could have a party just using tin pots and a stick and it would still sound funky IMO.

cheers,

Ron



Jim Opfer -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 11:49:41)

quote:

Hey Jim! It's been a long time!

Hi Rombsix yes, I know. I've been busy at work and lost a bit of interest playing but it's on the mend.
I've never seen anyone play like this before.
I liked the way he keeps looking over his shoulder as if he's meant to be at school or something but he's out making flamenco with his pals and might get caught. Great wee player.



XXX -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 11:55:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
If any of these guys wanted to learn to play advanced Flamenco guitar seriously and take lessons and practise, they would have an incredible start since they would just be concentrating on technique.


[:D][:D][:D]



Arash -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 11:59:43)

Its all about Rythm and Dynamic and all about playing in such enviroment.
If you do that for quite a time as a kid, then you get killer Compas for rest of your life which no one can beet who wasn't doing that as a kid




Doitsujin -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 12:24:26)

quote:

These guys could have a party just using tin pots and a stick and it would still sound funky IMO.


Did you see stomp?



Ron.M -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 18:00:07)

quote:

I liked the way he keeps looking over his shoulder as if he's meant to be at school or something but he's out making flamenco with his pals and might get caught.


I like the way the two guys sitting on the car suddenly sit up and try to look normal, like the Police are pointing a security camera towards them. [:D][:D]

cheers,

Ron



rombsix -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 18:29:50)

quote:

Great wee player.


[:D]



Ron.M -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 18:54:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
If any of these guys wanted to learn to play advanced Flamenco guitar seriously and take lessons and practise, they would have an incredible start since they would just be concentrating on technique.

Reply from Deniz:

[:D][:D][:D]



Oh..except Deniz of course...

He's already got the rhythm solidly under his belt (it appears).

Impressive technique is the main thing obviously!

(Rhythm and that sort of stuff, you can pick up later by just fitting your falsetas carefully and slowly to a Flamenco metronome.)

So I take back what I said.... [8|]

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 19:20:14)

Ron, i have no probs with compas (falsetas aside). I can play or mimic every rhythm that is in my technical limit of rasgeados and speed. And there we are again at the point of technique limiting the player. Besides, it has nothing to do with me or anybody. It is my honest opinion that everybody can create complex rhythms in their head. But playing the same thing on a guitar is a different topic. Use your hands and fingers on a table instead (technically easy) and the rhythm shows "doable".

I dont know about you Ron, but i have made the experience that alot of westerners who have problems with compas seem to mystify compas (like something unlearnable and "you have to born into it" kinda stuff) and overcomplicate things. Like people who say that counting is evil and you have to feel it. It is ALWAYS the same people who are very bad in compas.
Also these opinions, romanticizing and mystifying compas, serve as an excuse for not having become better with compas.
I have not come across one single person who had learned solid compas and was of the opinion that it is impossible to learn compas. I think it should be also obvious why.



Ron.M -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 19:36:06)

Well Deniz,

All I can say is RESPECT man!

Most "westerners", even the ones who have already had a long experience of playing Classical/Rock/Jazz etc etc...genuinely have to take quite a few years to understand and feel "fairly" comfortable with Flamenco compas and phrasing, since it is so unusual to anything they have known in the past...even though they may be very experienced guitar players.

So that's why if you know all that stuff already from a kid, then when you take Flamenco guitar lessons, you are starting much higher up the mountain.

I don't mean just knowing the theory from a book, or being able to count it out...

But just feeling as natural with it as with anything else you play...

I DO agree that a lot of folk " over-mystify" it, like it was a big secret or something...

That's stupid....it's not...

Sure, Deniz..

It's all do-able....but requires a lot of study and experience to truly get that groove in your playing IMO.

Which these guys have!

Not a lot of technique I admit...but plenty groove.

(Which tends to be the other way round with foreign players IMO)

The guy in the video is just thrashing some chords and picking some single notes...easy stuff...but it sounds RIGHT.

If you would be happy taking the guitar from the guy and showing them all your stuff then even more respect.

I have obviously underestimated you amigo.

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 20:03:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Most "westerners", even the ones who have already had a long experience of playing Classical/Rock/Jazz etc etc...genuinely have to take quite a few years to understand and feel fairly easy with Flamenco compas, since it is so unusual to anything they have known in the past...even though they may be very experienced guitar players.

So that's why if you know all that stuff already from a kid, then when you take Flamenco guitar lessons, you are starting higher up the mountain.


Ron,

for sure, if you are living down there, and are surrounded 24hrs a day by people who sing, clap, dance, play more or less very well in compas (as opposed to outside spain) it MUST BE an advantage compared to those guys who have learned Classical, or Jazz and have never heard of compas. I mean, is it really that surprising? Also I wouldnt expect a Jazz guy being able to play Classical. Why should he, if he has not learned it? Different genre, different techniques, expressions.

Doit said he could do it as tight as him [and i have no doubt about that], and nobody asked him to do a video or audio. I wonder why.



Ron.M -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 20:15:38)

Deniz,

He WILL make a video...

He will make it tomorrow...

It will be a video... [;)][:D]

cheers,

Ron



orsonw -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 20:31:52)

quote:

I don't think I'm being romantic, Orson.....just realistic.


I've met plenty of Spanish guitarists in Andalusia with terrible compas- just being around it is not enough.

The ones that are good practice. That's realisitic. Although I agree that just being technical isn't enough either. One needs both the technique and something musical to say and some Andalucian's with minimal techinque can say a lot.

(And of course many Spanish players of note have practiced like crazy and recommend others to do so. From Sabicas to Tomatito to the Cano Roto players. The Spanish are as much, if not more into pushing technique than anyone else)



Doitsujin -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 22:37:36)

Tomorrow probably not. I have to give 2 talks this week... so no time. Maybe later. But if nobody is interested, why should I? It gives me nothing,.. Im no musician who needs attention to get gigs. Im a hobby-player practicing 1 hour 2 days a week if I have time. But I can keep a good level... how come? :.)



Arash -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 4 2010 23:47:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

Im a hobby-player practicing 1 hour 2 days a week if I have time. But I can keep a good level... how come? :.)


maybe you are a gypsy and its in your blood [:D]



ToddK -> [Deleted] (Jul. 5 2010 0:11:57)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 5 2010 6:47:32



Ron.M -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 5 2010 12:08:47)

quote:

I've met plenty of Spanish guitarists in Andalusia with terrible compas- just being around it is not enough.

The ones that are good practice. That's realisitic. Although I agree that just being technical isn't enough either. One needs both the technique and something musical to say and some Andalucian's with minimal techinque can say a lot.


Oh yeah! For sure!!

I've met many drunks who think they have Flamenco knowledge and talent just as a birthright of being born and brought up in Andalucia even though they can't play for toffee, or even keep compás... but still treat you like an ignorant foreigner who knows nothing![:@]


On the other hand, I've met some helluva good amateurs, who may be from a household where Flamenco is played a lot and just play or sing with friends.

As you say, some folk can do a helluva lot with very minimal technique...they just seem to have something...a real groove.. which is very difficult to get in your own playing.
I really envy those sort of players.[:@][:D]

Speaking of good amateurs, I like this video...especially the alzapua.

I posted this a while back, asking about the alzapua.. and some folk replied by describing either how to do alzapua technique generally...or by saying glib things like "Oh..just start on the upstroke.."[&:][8|]

Now, I already can play alzapua and I'm generally pretty good at working stuff out..but I've looked at this for hours and hours and slowed it down and listened to it stroke by stroke...and I can't work out how he does it! [:@]

So if anybody can do this EXACTLY the same, then please post a video of you doing it fast and then very slow and I will be forever grateful as it has driven me nuts![:D][:D]

Verbal descriptions are no good. [;)]



I will post an mp3 in AV uploads so you can slow it down.



cheers,

Ron



mezzo -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 5 2010 17:13:44)

I like the way he golpe around the 0:35 for the remate (in the 1st vid), very groovy [:)]

quote:

I remember this vid and somebody saying that he probably didnt have a guitar to practice with. Or maybe he doesnt even know that its better to switch strings.

or maybe he learn to play that way because when juergas comes if there is only a right hand guitar, he want (need) to play on it anyway because everybody know he's good. So no choice, he learn some basic stuff.
But i think he know and learn on a left hand normal guitar because at 1:00 is instinct want to play a "normal" Bb chord position[:-]...imo[8D]

Also it seems he switch is index finger for the rasg
For me he play more as rumbero/tangos (palo por fiesta) but don't ask him to play por solea or seguiriya.

Most gitano here (south of france) can play por buleria in juerga but when you ask them to play por solea they pass the guitar very quickly [:D]



stratos13 -> RE: weird but wonderful (Jul. 5 2010 17:25:51)

I think he plays straight alzapua without the legato => 3 notes per cycle but with 16th notes always.

So you hear the bass at different places.
I think he does this cause his alzapua is so much stronger than his legato, so alzapua in fours (with legato) doesn't suit him well. Actually I am pretty sure imho.



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