NormanKliman -> RE: tarantos? (Jul. 4 2010 10:48:05)
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Romerito, lots of conjecture and even fantasy in your post. It's fine to theorize, and conversations about flamenco are often about that, but when someone asks for information, IMO it's in everyone's interest to stick to the facts, or at least make it clear when you're presenting a theory. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly can't make heads or tails of your post. What I see are many loose ends that you're attempting to tie together in order to prove some kind of point, but I don't understand your reasoning or the idea that you're trying to get across. First of all, there are no known recordings of Manuel Torre singing fandango de Lucena, or singing anything with Ramón Montoya for that matter, but there are five disks of Pastora singing fandangos de Lucena with Montoya. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll post the letras so that we can identify Pastora's recordings. quote:
El Murciano played a Rondena (18th century). It was transcribed by Glinka (Russian composer) and supposedly de Falla had access to it. Julian Arcas somehow learned it and interpreted variations on it including the cante melody. Tarrega was a student of Arcas and Borrull was an indirect student of Tarrega (and the classical/flamenco guitar debate has another twist). Well, that's an impressive cast of characters you've assembled there, but if you spend the time you can "connect the dots" almost any way you like. As an ancient folk/flamenco form, it's not surprising that rondeña and other styles appear in several "classical" pieces. Also, Montoya can be considered an indirect student of Tárrega through Miguel Llobet, so this kind of reasoning can be used to defend different points of view. What I find surprising is the "cante melody" that you mentioned. What melody is that? In the earliest recorded examples, rondeña is a cante abandolao that has nothing to do with the cantes mineros recorded by Manuel Torre and Carmen Amaya. Torre recorded exactly two letras in as many disks for the same cante: "Adonde andará mi muchacho" and "Darme la espuela." quote:
Torre sings Fandangos de Lucena accompanied by Montoya in binary rhythm No binary rhythm there that I can hear in either disk. Feel free to disagree. Carmen Amaya recorded three letras in a single track with Sabicas, again for a single cante although it's different from Torre's: "Que dame veneno," "Que de calaña, calañés" and "Y abre que soy el moreno." This is the track that Ricardo pointed out, with toque de minera and binary rhythm. So Torre and Amaya sing different cantes mineros. Rondeñas are cantes abandolaos, which are different from cantes mineros, although they can all be considered part of the huge family of "cantes levantinos" (malagueñas, granaínas, etc.) quote:
Borrull created the Rondena and Montoya, based on all the previous versions came up with his afinacion (Scordatura) and made the Rondena famous while at the same time erasing Borrull's contribution.. You're talking about Borrull padre, right? Can any of that be proven or is it just "connecting the dots" again? If there's some proof or even strong evidence to back up those claims, I'd like to see it. In fact, I'd like to know about any recording of Borrull padre accompanying cantes levantinos with any other toque than por arriba or toque de granaína. As far as I know, he didn't even record toque de Levante. quote:
Torre sings Rondena. Carmen sings it. Montoya plays it. Unless I'm missing something, it should be clear by now that Torre and Amaya did not record rondeñas. The apparent mislabelling of their recordings is the only reason to even mention rondeñas in this thread. Montoya recorded at least two disks of his rondeña. One of them contains a reference to a fragment of a cante, but it's levantica, not rondeña. Sabicas used the same idea in 1931 for an instrumental taranta in which a violin plays the melody of the levantica. quote:
Eventually, this melody began being called Tarantos, especially by Fosforito but by others as well. What melody? Honestly, I'm starting to lose count, but it looks like you're talking about at least three very different cantes. Fosforito's "No (tengo nada) que envidiarte" and "Nos queremos" (the second cante in the same track) are binary versions of Manuel Torre's taranto and, as I've already pointed out, Carmen Amaya's cante minero is different from Torre's. None of these cantes are musically similar to rondeñas. quote:
These melodies have a similarity to the Fandangos de Lucena The similarity can be summed up as the flatted fifth degree (B flat for cantes sung in E Phrygian). The only thing that this "demonstrates" is a similarity between certain cantes mineros and fandangos de Lucena, which is hardly surprising since both kinds of cante are from eastern Andalusia.
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