I think you've got a good explanation of the G/G# issue; it is very common to see this kind of ambiguous treatment in a tonal piece, but in a tonal context the G is raised to G# in order to enhance the resolution to A. This is not the case in a solea or a more modal piece where the E major is the "tonic" - it is the resolution, rather than an approach to a resolution.
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if it were not for rhythmic phrasing, all of the phrygian palos fall under the scope of what would be normal minor key analysis.
This is theoretically true, but you can't just omit rhythm from the analysis so it fits into a particular system. Whether a harmony falls on an accented or unaccented beat changes the way we perceive it, and needs to be accounted for... the rhythm and the phrasing is partially what makes it so ambiguously modal/tonal, and the rhythm/phrasing helps clarify that E major serves a tonic function and not a dominant one.
I don't think a classical musician would say a solea ends on V if they heard it correctly; they might say this if they saw it on paper, but hearing an actual performance would likely leave them somewhat confused, and they would probably also agree that it's both modal and tonal music.
Aso, that's a really interesting interpretation of F-E as an augmented-6th chord resolving to the Dominant in A minor, I've never thought of it like that before! My only concern is that Aug-6 chords were really used mostly for distant modulation/tonicizations - which is definitely not the case here. Otherwise, though, this is a valid interpretation.
Does anyone have any pieces we could analyze? It would be interesting to take a small solea (preferably with score and recording), have everyone analyze it, and then compare our interpretations. Might be a great learning experience.
Cheers! Gabriel
Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 25 2010 16:17:31)
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Ricardo -> RE: Music theory (Jun. 25 2010 17:48:57)
Just wanted to clearify that i don't disagree with flamenco being modal. And rhythm is so important too, that is why I mentioned it. Folks with ear training, as Romerito pointed out, but are not "inside" the rhythm, hear it differently. Even looking at a score, may seem, why did solea not end on beat 1 with an A minor??? Just an example, that is why I said to compare a buleria in A minor to one in E phrygian, since they share scales and chords.
I just feel flamenco needs to be viewed from 2 angles, not just one. Ok, manolo likes Greek modes and tetra chords. That works. But you can't escape the fact guitar music obeys the circle of 5ths and all implications. Tonicizing the V chord in a minor key, or having a phrygian tonic and all things that lead to that resolution, are 2 sides of the SAME coin IMO.
Ricardo
Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 25 2010 20:38:27)
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Ricardo -> RE: Music theory (Jun. 30 2010 3:03:28)
Well I figured for fun we could do analysis of some flamenco. Here are 2 cantes, Granaina and Malagueña. For simplicity, I will use the key of the guitar with capo rather than the absolute key. Tomatito plays in E phrygian, so lets say a key signature of no sharps or flats.
So lets skip the guitar intro and "falsetas" and just look at the singing parts. The first singing is with no lyrics just "tiri ah--------" but we can look at the harmonic structure of the melody. It goes from note B to A and the guitar plays A minor. Then G#A B A 2x then G natural to F. The guitar plays F major. Then EFGF 2x, down to D#, then rests on E. The guitar plays E major.
I would say this part could be viewed as in A minor, so we have only i-VI-V with the guitar, but the voice implies more. V-i-V-i-V-i-VII-VI-Aug 6th-V and it stops there, or hangs on V.
The modal version would be I-iv-I-iv-I-iv-III-II-II7-I...coming to rest on I E phrygian but the guitar only played the chords iv, II, and I.
Ok now the hybrid part, the letra. I feel it is clear this and all fandangos modulate from the modal key to the relative MAJOR via the V7 (or III chord) and don't go modal again till the end. I will put the modal harmonies in (...).
key of C major (E phrygian) V7 (III7)-I y no..... V7/IV- IV y era.... V7-I y no.... I-V y que.... V7-I que aboracerte.... V7/IV-IV(II)...tanto como.... Aug 6th/vi (II7)-V/vi (I)
Now the second letra, malagueña. C major (E phrygian) V7(III7)-I I-vi V7-I I-vi V7-I I-vi vi(iv)-V(III) V(III)-IV(II) IV(II)-V7/vi (I)
So you see at the end the andalusian cadence comes in slow. iv-III-II-I. Incidentally, in the major key there is no III chord, it is supposed to be iii, hence I use the V/vi to describe that. In harmonic analysis of major keys, V/anything implies the need for an accidental.
And just to add, my harmonies are implied by the voice, not literally what the guitar is playing always. For example the aug 6th chord is done by the voice regardless if the guitar played that D# or not.
